Question about Indian Muslims..

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

It might be worth reading this article in The Milli Gazette (www.milligazette.com) about Muslim representation in the Parlament.

Also, it is worth considering that if all people belonging to the Islamic faith belong to an “Ummah” the Muslim brotherhood why is there not equal noise made about Dafur? Are they not Muslims? Why keep quite about the Kurds?

Muslims in India get equal opportunities as any other community Parsi, Sikh or Christian. Their representaion is in each and every field Government, Sports, Politics, Information Technology, Arts, everywhere.

The Dar ul Uloom in Deoband has a website:

One must remember that the patriotism of the Indian Muslim has always been looked at with suspicion especially when everybody reads in history that Muslims divided the Indian nation. So the pressure is more on them.

The Indian Muslim whether on the borders of Rajasthan or in the interiors of Maharashtra believes that this is his Madar-e-Watan.

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

but aejaz bhai, you did reply by submitting this post…:slight_smile:

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

If Indian democracy extended to Kashmir, they would have had the right to decide their own fate. A nation which holds an entire people hostage and calls them citizens is not a democracy its a sham…
And whether the MMA are devils or saints they were elected.. If you were a democracy you would respect that. Seeing as your democracy is a sham, noting to talk about is there loser:)
HEY look I can makes smilies TOOOOOO :hehe: :rotfl: :slight_smile:

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

I admit the crissis in DARFUR IS THE FAILURE OF MUSLIMS GLOBALLY. But when Indian Muslims can allow their govt to commit such heinous crimes in their own country against their fellow citizens, its far less excusable..

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

Well, how many in Held Kashmir want to be Indian citizens?

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

Indian army is nothing more then brabarians with guns. They have killed and raped thouands of Innocent people. People who rebelled because they simply refused to part of your nation. This is why your democracy is a lie. You support your armies attrocities and thus you are as guilty as they. And you can keep those coward sell out Muslims of yours.
Indian oppression is an evil that should be wiped of the face of the earth.. You are nothing but a bunch of raping murdering FANATICS… You are a disgrace to humanity…
You have proved the point that Indian are nothing more then oppressors. THIS FROM THE NATION THAT BIRTHED GANDHI… Hypocrits! Hows that for insults?
Anyways, so why dont your fellow Indian Muslims stnd up for there countrymen in Indian Occupied Kashmir?
What shocking is that you have the GAUL to post after checking out all those amnesty international reports. You guys are the sick!

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

Whats funny is that this is a Pakistani site, and im the only one here getting you guys fuming:hehe: It really is 1 Pakistani for every 10 Indian :hehe: :wink:
And I think I have inspired atleast four new Indian guppies join just after reading my posts:hehe:

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

:smiley: . I pity u.. :smiley: :smiley: :rotfl: :stupid: .
:biggthumb way to go patriot.!!!:kiss:
Now add on more smilies beta..:slight_smile:

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

^ Where would we be without smilies? You know, this web site is really a microcasm of India isnt it, a few Hindus representing an entire commuinty who are either to afraid or to disorganized to speak for themselves!

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

THIS GUY KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT…
“…in INDIA its a hindu govt and its a hindu country not a muslim country who will supoort muslim for such protests like in pak and afghan and other countries,”

“if u carry out protest in INDIA the 1st thing the police does is to jail the youths without any warrant and with out any excuse , so in this way u just losse ur youth behind the bars and this is wot the opposition wants!!!”
Now the Hindu representatives of Muslims in India can denounce this guy as a poser… Please!
This is what im trying to get you people to admit… This redeems the Indian Muslims…

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

If you guys give up that easily, how in the heck do you expect to keep Kashmir?!?!?

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

how much pakistan willing to sacrifice for kashmir more than india?
we can sacrifice and withstand more poverty than you.

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

lol... I knew you couldnt stay away.. Still any reply to the Indai guppie who said that in Indian Muslims protest they will be arrested?

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

Indian Muslims Protest Alleged Qur’an Abuse
Allegations of desecration of Islam’s holy book continue to spark angry demonstrations

i think they should be arrested if they used following sensless words

He spoke as about 200 protesters gathered outside the embassy, chanting “kill, kill George Bush” and other anti-American slogans. Many in the crowd covered their faces with scarves. A man with a megaphone led chants including “USA watch your back, Osama is coming back” and "bomb, bomb New York

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/167/story_16710_1.html#cont

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

Yeah, but what if Indian muslims decided to protest the Indian Army excesses in Kashmir?
You know the same way people in New York protested against the War in Iraq?

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

indian muslim position is same as govermant postion same as pakistani hindus
wolul suppoer pakistani govermant. they only want india to be seuclar as
porimised in constitution .

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

^Idont believe that. If is true that Indian Muslims allowed the whole sale slaughter of Kashmiris and their rights, then they have no excuse, and they deserve whatevr abuse thats heaped on them from Hindus or whoever. A case of of not speaking out when they could have and being left with no one to speak up for them when its them.
Still, I go by what the guy in the other post said, if the Muslims were to democstrate against India, they would instantl be labeled as anti Indian and the rest I think we all know what could happen...

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

I did some new research and found this article… Talks about ow even Maps can be a reason to arrest Muslims in India!
http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/special99/kash-kargil.htm
Biased maps and war hysteria - an Indian Muslim perspective on the Kargil operation

By a special correspondent

The dispute about Kashmir between India and Pakistan evokes different reactions at different levels. During the crisis over Kargil, patriotic sentiments on both sides ran high. But, as usual, Muslims in India were put in a particularly difficult position, increasingly asked to prove their loyalty to the country. Indians regularly disagree with the Vajpayee government’s stance, and question whether military strikes have done more bad than good, but if you are a Muslim and ask these questions, your loyalty is suspect. Even without such sins of commission, you are suspected on grounds of omission if you do not declaim your patriotism loudly enough, and condemn Pakistan in the worst possible terms.

Thus one does not find Hindu religious men declaring wholehearted support for the federal government in the fight against Pakistan; no Christian church institution or synod of bishops came forward to declare patriotic sentiments at the hour of national unity. But several congregations of imams, in the glare of media publicity, stepped forward to announce their support of the government in the jihad against Pakistani infiltrators in Kargil. Newspapers carried pictures of Muslims converging on the prime minister’s residence to do the same. Muslim members of the secular political parties vied with one another in the patriotism stakes.

Nowhere is this suspicion of Muslims more visible than in the question of India’s maps. Maps used throughout the world show Kashmir as either disputed territory or belonging to Pakistan. Many of the maps used by the Indian media and organizations, including various official and popular publications, show the same, as they usually come from such international sources rather than official Indian ones, either because the foreign ones are better quality or because they are easily available , for example through the Internet.

But a map-divide has became all too evident. When a Muslim uses or displays a map showing Kashmir as non-Indian, he is arrested immediately; and if such a map belongs to a non-Muslim source or is even expressly published by a non-Muslim publication or institution, it is either ignored or attracts the lightest legal treatment.

There have been several such cases in the southern Indian state of Kerala. In the city of Calicut, a small restaurant was immediately targeted when a map was spotted near the kitchen showing Kashmir outside India. Ten Muslims and two Hindus were immediately arrested, and later released on bail; only the Muslims were later charged.

In another similar incident a Muslim engineer on vacation from his Gulf job was arrested for possessing a foreign-made globe showing Kashmir outside India. He was charged under Indian Penal Code Section 124A, which is carries a possible penalty of up to seven years’ imprisonment. Hundreds of other Indians must have bought similar globes and brought them into India, without the slightest attention being paid to this matter.

The case of a non-Muslim magazine (Christian-owned, to be exact) presents a fine contrast. Balarama, a children’s magazine in the Malayalam regional language, part of the largest-circulation daily paper, the Malayala Manorama group, printed a similar map as part of an illustrated series. Although some newspapers reported the incident, no immediate action was taken. Had it been a Muslim publication, experience shows that copies of the magazine would have been immediately confiscated and editors put behind bars. Only several days later was a case brought against the magazine, and even that was on a private petition; the state took no action whatsoever.

But the state did not need such prompting in the case of a Muslim publication, the Muslim Review of the People’s Democratic Party in Kerala, which published a similarly offending map. The police arrested not only the editor but the printer as well. No-one, either within the judiciary or outside it, appears to have noticed the different standards applied for the same offence.

What is more, even some maps published by federal and state government agencies are guilty of the same ‘error’. Thus in Kerala, for example, a regional centre of the federal government’s computer education and training centre has a brochure with a map that does not show Kashmir as part of India. The standard explanation is that they all adopted a map, banned by India in 1995, from a software package published by the US computer giant Microsoft. But the more pertinent fact is that no official of either this centre or the parent department was booked for the offence.

But the biggest paradox lies with India’s most patriotic (ie Hinduist) outfit. It turns out that the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the stridently Hinduist movement that is always at the forefront when Muslims are attacked as anti-national, has itself been guilty of cartographic sin. In a press advertisement splashed in the Indian Express of 15 May 1992, it omitted Kashmir from the map of India. But this was not inadvertent. The Hindu nation conceived by VHP has no place for Kashmir; but the point is that publication of such a map is against the law and, in their own terms, violated the integrity of the nation. But the arms of the law did not extend to either the VHP leaders or the publishers of the newspaper.

In the meantime, there has been some reaction against the exaggerated nationalism displayed during the relatively minor Indian military operation in Kargil. Every conceivable body tried to capitalize on the operation for its own benefit, making statements extolling the soldier, or making well-publicised donations. Many revelled in the glare of press cameras as they gave cheques or visited injured soldiers, acts which were temporarily worth more in public relations terms than a century in cricket or an award-winning film. Big publicity at little cost became the norm.

Such exaggerated displays of nationalism prompted critical comment from some quarters. Sociologist and writer Ashish Nandy commented, “I think this jingoism is a temporary phenomenon, though it will leave its sediments. Traditional Indian society has collapsed and the sort of deep-rooted nationalism seen during the independence movement is a thing of the past… This is a knee jerk reaction and at times it’s been in bad taste… We saw cricketers and film-stars playing football to raise funds and some of them baying for Pakistani blood. This sort of blood-thirstiness and cheque book frenzy does no credit to anybody at all.”

At a recent seminar on the role of the press during the war, speakers bemoaned the lot of the press who were fated to carry the daily press briefings of Indian military authorities verbatim as news of the war, instead of taking the hard path of battle-front reporting. They pointed out that the press was largely to blame for hysteria created by the Indian response to Pakistan’s Kargil operation.

Few people, however, have spared a thought for the plight of India’s Muslims.

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

Here is another look at the Indian Muslim prespective. He highlights why the Kashmir sturggle is not Jihad and why Kashmir whould stay with India, atleast for the sake of Indian Muslims. He also points out briefly the ills of Indian society and the problems faced by Muslims in Hindu majority India.
Still only hints on why the Indian Muslims are completely silent on the abuses of their govt…

War in Kashmir: An Indian Muslim Perspective - Syed Mohammad Sadiq

The continuing conflict in Kashmir, that has taken a toll of several thousand lives, today still shows no sign of ending. India and Pakistan as well as the several self-styled jihadist groups active in the region appear completely unwilling to make any major compromise in their respective positions. As an Indian Muslim, a student of Islam, and as someone who is seriously trying to practise my faith and understand it objectively, I feel that because the conflict is often framed as an Islamic jihad it is necessary to examine it to see if this labeling is legitimate at all. If indeed it fits the case of an Islamic jihad there can, to my mind, be no question of not supporting it. On the other hand, if, despite the claims of various militant groups, the war cannot be considered an Islamic jihad, I personally believe that there can be no Islamic justification for it. It might well be considered to be a struggle for national self-determination, but cannot be said to be an Islamically legitimate jihad.

Scholars of Islam are unanimous in agreeing that jihad, understood here as physical battle against non-Muslim enemies, is possible only under certain circumstances. There are strict rules governing the declaration and conduct of jihad, and in order to judge whether or not the current militant movement in Kashmir is indeed an Islamic jihad, it is pertinent to examine it in the light of each these conditions.

Many Muslim scholars hold that resort to armed jihad is not allowed against a state that grants its Muslim citizens the freedom to practise their faith. All other problems that Muslims might face by living in such a state have social or political causes, and hence must be solved through social and political means, and not through armed conflict wrongly labeled as jihad.

India, at least in theory, is a secular state, and its Constitution guarantees full freedom of religion, including of the practice and propagation of religion, to all its citizens. It is true that the rights of non-Hindus, particularly Muslims, in India are being trampled upon today and that the Indian Muslims are being actively persecuted by Hindutva groups, often in league with the state. However, no fair-minded person will deny that the growing popularity of the appeals of Hindutva groups in India owes, among other factors, to the widespread fear psychosis among many Hindus triggered off by self-styled jihadists in Kashmir. When groups like the Lashkar-i Tayyeba claim, as they repeatedly do, that their ultimate aim is to have the Islamic or Pakistani flag flying atop Delhi’s Red Fort, and when such groups attack and kill Hindus in Kashmir and elsewhere with impunity, it is bound to have a reaction, and naturally this works to increase the support of right-wing anti-Muslim Hindutva groups among Hindus in India, leading, in turn, to increasing attacks on Muslims in the country. It cannot be denied that the violent rhetoric and actions of Hindutva groups and self-styled Islamist groups active in Kashmir feed on each other. In other words, true freedom of religion for Muslims (and for others) in India, which is what the aim of any legitimate jihad should be, can be secured only through active struggle against both right-wing Hindu as well as self-styled Islamist groups. The rhetorica and tactics of the self-styled jihadists in Kashmir, therefore, are completely counter-productive from the Muslim point of view itself.

In this regard, it must also be remembered that prior to the launching of the militant movement in Kashmir in 1989, and even today, for that matter, the Government of India has not placed any restriction on the freedom of religion of Muslims in Kashmir or elsewhere in India. In fact, it is a well-known fact that even prior to the outbreak of militancy in Kashmir, the region had hardly any Islamic institutions, despite Muslims being a majority. Students who wanted to go in for higher Islamic education would generally take admission in madrasas and universities in other parts of India. Almost no Islamic literature of note was produced in Kashmir, and even the Islamist Jamaat-i Islami of Kashmir, which has been in the forefront of the anti-Indian movement, was dependent almost entirely on the literature produced by the Jama’at-i Islami Hind. Islamic bookshops in Srinagar and other towns stocked, as they still do, books almost entirely published by Muslim scholars from other parts of India, there being very few Kashmiri Islamic scholars who had devoted themselves to such literary pursuits. If at all the uprising in Kashmir was indeed motivated by purely religious concerns, one wonders why this was the case.

Jihad must always be done ‘fi sabil illah’ or ‘in the path of God’. In other words, it must be undertaken simply for the sake of the faith. If it is launched for personal or worldly aims, such as for political independence, joining accession to another country or acquiring political power, it cannot be deemed to be a jihad.

The Kashmiri militant movement was launched not by Islamist groups, but, rather, by the secular Jammu and Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF). It was only later that when Islamist groups such as the Jama’at-i Islami felt that the JKLF was emerging as a major challenge to their own authority that they reluctantly decided to join the militant movement. Further, Pakistan also decided to lend armed and other forms of support to the Islamists, finding that their goal of getting Kashmir to join Pakistan worked more in its interest than the pro-independence JKLF. In other words, the militant movement was launched not ‘in the path of Allah’ (fi sabil illah), which is a precondition for a legitimate jihad, but simply for the sake of a particular political agenda. This means that the movement cannot be considered to be a jihad in the Islamic sense of the term.

Jihad, as a rule, is a defensive war. The Qur’an is replete with exhortations to the believers to desist fromaggression against others. It allows for the taking up of arms only when Muslims are persecuted on account of their faith. On no account can Muslims attack non-Muslims who are not opposed to them. The Qur’an explicitly states that God does not forbid Muslims from being kind and dealing justly with those who have not fought them because of their faith. In the course of the war in Kashmir, militants (as well as, of course, the Indian army) are known to have committed considerable atrocities against innocent civilians, Muslims as well as others. This goes completely against the rules of Islamic jihad. In the case of some self-styled Islamist groups such atrocities have been no minor aberrations or exceptions. For instance, the Lashkar-i Tayyeba has consistently sought to present all Hindus as ‘enemies of Islam’ and hence as legitimate targets. This is completely un-Islamic, and one regrets that Islamic organizations have not had the courage to openly issue fatwas to condemn this as totally unacceptable and declare the Lashkar and similar groups as enemies of Islam.

Islam gives the utmost importance to peace. In fact, Islam is the only religion whose very name means ‘peace’ (salaam). One of the names of the attributes of God is also al-Salaam or the very embodiment of Peace. The Qur’an repeatedly tells the believers that if aggressive non-believers incline towards peace, they, too, should make every effort in the same direction. Jihad, in the sense of defensive war, is governed by strict codes of conduct. Thus, unarmed enemies, women, priests, children and the elderly are not to be harmed.

It is true that the Government of India’s proposals for dialogue with the militants have not been unconditional and that it has always insisted that the status of Kashmir as an ‘integral part of India’ is non-negotiable. That in itself is, of course, unacceptable. Yet, in accordance with the Qur’anic dictate that if one’s enemies incline towards peace, Muslims, too, must do so, it was incumbent on the militants to actively work for peace, rather than creating even greater strife. The word ‘Islam’ means peace, as Muslims believe, the Prophet was sent as a ‘mercy (rahmat) to the world’, but how far, if at all, we must ask, have the Kashmiri militants been able to abide by the commandments of Islam and the model of the Prophet in this regard? In actual fact, as will be readily admitted, they have done the gravest damage to the image of Islam. By their bloody actions they have only succeeded in convincing many non-Muslims that Islam is a violent, bloodthirsty religion that has nothing to do with peace. In other words, they have done grievous harm to Islam rather than serving it.

Before launching a jihad, Muslims must make every effort to convey the message of Islam to those opposed to them. This is, what, in fact, the Prophet did when he and his early disciples had to suffer great persecution at the hands of the Qur’aish in Mecca. In the absence of efforts to convey the message of Islam to their opponents before launching a defensive war, no armed struggle can be considered a legitimate jihad. Furthermore, in accordance with the tradition (sunnah) of the Prophet, Muslims must first seek to migrate from the land where they are being persecuted (hijrat), and only then, after all other efforts have failed, can they take up arms in self-defence.

As mentioned above, a precondition for declaring armed jihad is that first all efforts should be made to convey the message of Islam to one’s opponents. If they refuse to accept it and still carry on active persecution of Muslims on account of their faith then only is it allowed for Muslims to take up arms in their defence, and that too provided only if they continue to be oppressed. The Kashmiris have done nothing in this regard. No recent Kashmir 'alim or Muslim scholar or organization is known to have made any effort whatsoever in da’wah work among non-Muslims in Kashmir or elsewhere in India. None of the militants involved in any of the various self-styled Islamist outfits have ever made any such efforts. On the contrary, by their actions and rhetoric they have only made da’wah work even more difficult, having led many non-Muslims to believe that Islam is a religion of terror. This clearly suggests, then, that their struggle can in no way be considered a legitimate jihad.

Muslim scholars are generally agreed that the jihad can only be launched when Muslims possess enough military strength to combat their opponents. If they lack this strength, war would cause even more damage to the Muslims, and therefore it cannot be considered a legitimate jihad. It is also argued that if war would create more problems for Muslims than it would solve it may not be legitimate.

It is readily apparent that the Kashmiri self-styled jihadists are no military match for the Indian army. In the course of the last almost two decades, most of the several thousand people who have lost their lives in Kashmir have been Muslims. Thousands of Muslim women have been widowed and many more Muslim children have been orphaned. The war has caused unimaginable damage to the Kashmiri Muslims while not bringing them any substantial gains. Further, it is also undeniable that the conflict in Kashmir has made life for the Muslims in the rest of India much more difficult and insecure. The activities of self-styled jihadists in Kashmir have given a tremendous boost to Hindu terror groups, who now attack Muslims with impunity. If Kashmir succeeds in separating from India the pressure on the Muslims remaining in the country would bound to increase. Their credentials would be held in even greater suspicion than now and demands would even be made that they should leave the country. The Muslims in the rest of India, taken together, number more than 10 times the Muslim population of Kashmir. Hence, from a strictly Islamic perspective, the interests of the former take precedence over the latter. Since it is in the interests of the Indian Muslims that Kashmir stay with India, the Kashmiri militants must recognize this if they are sincere about their commitment to Islam.

It is high time concerned Muslims stand up and defend the fair name of their religion from being sullied by self-styled Islamists in Kashmir and elsewhere who are motivated simply by hatred of people of other faiths and who are using religion for their own base motives. It is tragic that Islamic organizations and Muslim 'ulama choose to remain silent on the continued abuse of Islam by such groups. They are ever eager to pass fatwas of infidelity against anyone threatening their personal interests, but turn the other way when terrorists misuse the faith for their own political agendas. This is not to deny the equally culpable role of the Indian state and Hindu terrorist groups. They too are equally condemnable. However, as Muslims it is our duty to see that our actions are in accordance with the teachings of our faith. Others would be held responsible by Allah for their own actions.

These are just some random thoughts that emanate straight from the heart. I do not claim to be an Islamic scholar, and my understanding of Islam is indeed limited.

Re: Question about Indian Muslims..

good article. a slap in the face of all those yelling foul at indian muslims on this thread.