109.001 Say: O disbelievers!
109.002 I worship not that which ye worship;
109.003 Nor worship ye that which I worship.
109.004 And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
109.005 Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
109.006 Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
1. From your post it seems that you do believe that the word Mutawafika means death, but as it can have some other meanings you chose to pick the others because most scholars agree upon this approach. True? If true, then it boils down to difference in opinion!
[/quote]
I said 'mutawafikka' has other primary meanings which do not necessarily involve or imply death. A difference of opinion doesn't always mean that all opinions are legitimate or that the evidence is spread equally among all views. With many issues it is often possible to prefer one opinion over another based on the proof behind it. In any case, i don't see an overwhelming difference among classical commentators. Al-Tabari, al-Qurtubi, Ibn Kathir, al-Suyuti, al-Shawkani all concluded, after presenting a wide range of reports on the matter, that Prophet 'Isa (as) was raised alive. The significant difference seems to be whether he was raised awake or asleep.
[quote]
2. You mentioned there are Hadiths that support the physical ascension of Jesus (as) to heaven. The ones I have read only mention his descending from heaven as a Messiah for the Muslims. If I have missed the ones that mention ascension, can you please point them out?
[/quote]
It is the hadith about Prophet 'Isa's (as) second-coming and descent that are mutawatir. The fact that these hadith describe him descending alive implies that he was raised alive. Some of these hadith then go on to describe his subsequent death.
[quote]
3. Also, are there any Hadiths that mention what actually happened when the Romans came to pick Hazrat Isa (as), who was the person who actually got crucified & so on & so forth? I have read inconsistent stories which do not mention any Hadiths or even any authentic reporter.
[/quote]
To the best of my knowledge, and Allah knows best, there are no hadith that give us the details of what happened at that time. However, a report traced back to the Companion Ibn Abbas (r) describes how after learning of the Jewish/Roman plot against him, Prophet 'Isa (as) asked his disciples which of them wished to be his close companion in Paradise. When one of them put himself forward he was transformed into the likeness of Prophet 'Isa (as) and willingly sacrificed himself on his behalf. It was at that time that Prophet 'Isa (as) was raised, just as his enemies entered the room. Ibn Kathir, in his commentary of 4:157, confirms that this report has a rigorously authentic (sahih) chain of transmission back to Ibn Abbas (r) whilst Muqbil ibn Hadi, a hadith scholar who recently passed away, said its chain is 'hasan' (fair). Other early authorities also narrate a similar report. Other narrations mention that Prophet 'Isa's (as) likeness was placed over all his disciples as his enemies waited outside. One of these disciples then exited the building and he was captured in Prophet 'Isa's (as) place. Yet other reports suggest that it was Judas who was made to resemble Prophet 'Isa (as) since he betrayed him.
[quote]
4. I have firm belief that Qur’an explains the teachings prescribed in it. One verse supports the other & they are not at conflict with each other. Do you have any other verse in Qur’an that supports the physical ascension of Hazrat Isa (as) to heaven?
[/quote]
Refer to my earlier comments regarding the phrase 'rafiuka ilaya'.
[quote]
5. Can you please elaborate your argument with regards to the verse 5:117? How do you think that it supports your view?
[/quote]
I didn't say it supports my view. I was commenting on the opinion of those who, for the sake of argument, are prepared to concede that 'mutawaffika' always means 'to cause to die' but who at the same time also say that the word order given in the verse is not meant to reflect the sequence in which these events took place. According to them, even if it is conceded that 'mutawaffika' means 'death', the act of raising Prophet 'Isa (as) alive could have occurred first with his death delayed until after his descent towards the end of time. At first reading, i'm not so sure of the strength of this particular argument and wondered whether reference to 5:117 could show that it is not sound. This is not to say that i don't accept that Prophet 'Isa (as) was raised alive, that he will descend and then die. I most certainly do hold that belief, but this last line of argument may not be the strongest basis on which to build that belief. Allah knows best.
Iqbal
Iqbal,
Actually I have a reference book that quotes up to 25-26 Ulema starting from some of the Sahaba (ra) Hazrat Hasan & Hazrat Ibn e Abass (ra), some of the middle one like Imam Maalik (rh) up to some of the scholars of this age like Alaama Rahid Raza & Dr. Mahmood Hijazi of Al-Azhar who represent the view, keeping in mind the Hadiths, that Hazrat Isa (as) died a natural death. I will be more than happy to give you some of the references if you would like.
I am interested to know that one Hadiths supporting the physical ascension of Hazrat Isa (ra) you mention reported by Hazrat Ibn-e-Abbas (ra). Where can I find more information regarding this and in what Sahih book has it been reported? If it is mentioned in any of the Tafaseer, please do mention it & I will check with my library.
The argument that someone physically should desend from Heaven was also put forward to Hazrat Isa (as) himself as it was reported in the Old testament that Elijah would descend before the Messiah can appear. The verses of Old testament regarding the ascension & descend of Elijah are pretty clear. Yet, Hazrat Isa (as) himself pointed to John the Baptist & said he is Elijah, those who want to believe, believe! And no where it is reported that he descended from Heaven.
If someone has died & people talk about him coming back, it's a general rule of thumb that it's a metaphorical speech. If I say you are a Hatam Tai, it doesn't mean that you are the actual one who lived centuries ago but that in your generosity, knowledge & other attributes you represent him. If knowing the character of my son, I say he will be Lion when he grows up .. it basically means that I am referring towards his courage & strength, not that he will grow a tail & start praying on deer.
Anyway, I will be out of town for a couple of weeks, maybe we will carry this online or offline when I return. I am glad to find someone who at least knows what he is talking about rather than just shooting arrows in the dark regarding their belief. :)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
Actually I have a reference book that quotes up to 25-26 Ulema starting from some of the Sahaba (ra) Hazrat Hasan & Hazrat Ibn e Abass (ra), some of the middle one like Imam Maalik (rh) up to some of the scholars of this age like Alaama Rahid Raza & Dr. Mahmood Hijazi of Al-Azhar who represent the view, keeping in mind the Hadiths, that Hazrat Isa (as) died a natural death. I will be more than happy to give you some of the references if you would like.
[/quote]
Please do, it will be interesting to look at.
[quote]
I am interested to know that one Hadiths supporting the physical ascension of Hazrat Isa (ra) you mention reported by Hazrat Ibn-e-Abbas (ra). Where can I find more information regarding this and in what Sahih book has it been reported? If it is mentioned in any of the Tafaseer, please do mention it & I will check with my library.
[/quote]
You'll find what Ibn Abbas (r) said in the following tafsir works:
Ibn Kathir (d. 774H), Tafsir Qur'an al-Adhim, commentary on Surah 4:157
Al-Qurtubi (d. 671H), al-Jami' al-Ahkam al-Qur'an, commentary on Surah 3:55
Al-Suyuti (d. 911H), al-Durr al-Manthur fi Tafsir bi al-Ma'thur, commentary on Surah 4:157. Al-Suyuti also references the report to other works, such as Musnad 'Abd ibn Humayd, al-Nasa'i, Ibn Abi Hatim (d. 327H), Ibn Mardawiya.
See also al-Tabari (d. 310H), Jami' al-Bayan 'an Ta'wil al-Qur'an (#8484-8491), as he mentions reports similar to that of Ibn Abbas (r) from other early non-Companion authorities. One of these is Mujahid, a leading student of Ibn Abbas (r), who is also reported to have said that another individual was crucified instead, whilst Allah raised Prophet 'Isa (as) to Himself alive. Refer to Tafsir al-Tabari (#8491), which gives two chains of transmission back to Ibn Abi Najih who reports the narrative from Mujahid and one chain back to Ibn Jurayj from Mujahid. As always, the strength of these chains have to be considered. It is also in al-Suyuti, al-Durr al-Manthur, who references it to Musnad 'Abd ibn Humayd.
[quote]
The argument that someone physically should desend from Heaven was also put forward to Hazrat Isa (as) himself as it was reported in the Old testament that Elijah would descend before the Messiah can appear. The verses of Old testament regarding the ascension & descend of Elijah are pretty clear. Yet, Hazrat Isa (as) himself pointed to John the Baptist & said he is Elijah, those who want to believe, believe! And no where it is reported that he descended from Heaven.
[/quote]
???
[quote]
If someone has died & people talk about him coming back, it's a general rule of thumb that it's a metaphorical speech. If I say you are a Hatam Tai, it doesn't mean that you are the actual one who lived centuries ago but that in your generosity, knowledge & other attributes you represent him. If knowing the character of my son, I say he will be Lion when he grows up .. it basically means that I am referring towards his courage & strength, not that he will grow a tail & start praying on deer.
[/quote]
I don't see any compelling need to interpret the Prophet's (s) hadith figuratively in this instance.
[quote]
*Anyway, I will be out of town for a couple of weeks, maybe we will carry this online or offline when I return. I am glad to find someone who at least knows what he is talking about rather than just shooting arrows in the dark regarding their belief. :) *
[/QUOTE]
Catch up with you then, insha'Allah. Have a safe journey.
Iqbal
assalamoalikum mo bro u are rite that paki abroad has no knowledge of islam what so ever he doesn't even know about hazrat isa being alive in heaven presently and then coming to kill dajjal etc
i am also into naqshabandi silsila althought i am not baiiiit yet i have been going to the dera since 1995 in blackburn actaully bro do u know hazrat khwaga sufi mohammed aslam sahib who passed away 2 years ago do u go the annual milad-un-nabi are we one the same wavelenght here
let me know.........
denial is not a river in egypt dream.
So?
What is the conclusion here?
Jesu' is holy? A son of God's teachings?
AAG:
salaamz
Hazrat Isa(AS) was a messenger(prophet) of Allah, just like Hazrat Muhammad(SAW).
I dont fee like opening a debate here but we (sunnis) believe that he was risen to the heavens in his physical form and he will return back in this world on the Day of Judgement.
A son of God’s teachings???
If Allah can create Adam(AS) from clay/mud then i dont think its that difficult for Allah (SWT) to create Isa(AS) without a father.
Also, associating someone, anyone, or anything, or another being with Allah (SWT) is clearly Shirk.
What is Shirk?
And...?? A son of God's teachings is a non-argumentative expression.
And..those who cannot grasp the concept of son of god?
Or refuse that thought?
Think... teachings. Gods.
which btw.. are pretty much the same, anywhere you look.
In many different ways, in many different languages
For the most part? = same teachings.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *
What is Shirk?
[/QUOTE]
Shirk...is when a person claims that he(Allah, SWT) has a partner.
And Allah Knows Best.
<~~~ complete Kaffir shirker!
my thinking is.. God should have many partners. Multitudes.
kind of like.....
Moses
Mohammad
Jesus
Yes. Absolutely.
Teaching us to follow God's wisdom.
^ And why is that? Will it change anything? I dont think so.
Allah(SWT) is Al Ahad, As Samad he doesnt depend on anyone or anthing. Also, he doesnt need anyone or anything, but *EVERYTHING IN THIS UNIVERSE * needs him and depends on him(Allah).
Messengers only came one after the other, to spread the message of Allah(SWT).
If Allah wanted, he easily could have made everyone follow his din(religion;Islam).
But instead, he wanted to test us, to see how much we obey him and believe in him. That is why we are here in this filthy world.
AAG does talk a lot of jazz. 
<~~~ Jazzy :)
Now think.
We are here because God made us in his image. Meaning being that he granted us choice. We make our own choices. God gave us the grace to decide our own destiny. Was his idea.
So... my thinking is that.. yeah... right now... be a good thing that God had multiple partners...(priests), (imans), (monks)... to remind us of HIS command to love one another.
And most importantly to have faith.
Re: jesus as is raised
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by yari-EH!: *
Whats the big deal for him to return?
[/QUOTE]
Its not a big deal but PA and Ahmadjee have great problem with that as they are followers of Mirza Qadian and it would certainly would cast a shadow on the innumerous claims of Mirza sahib if Jesus is believed to come back..
Jesus (AS) is one of the closest prophet of Allah along with Muhammad (PBUH) and Moses (AS). Jesus is mentioned directly by his name 25 times in holy Quran whereas Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is himself only 4 times.. A whole surah "Mayam" in Quran for jesus's (AS) mother is testamant to glory of this great prophet of God.. Jesus is loved by christians and muslims alike.. but I have seen Jesus is never mentioned in good words by ahmadis.. when Mirza sahib gradually started allocating all the titles to himself including promised masiah, mehdi, prophet of God, messenger of God, mirror of Muhammad (PBUH).. he also started comparing himself to other prophets of God.. and even said he is greater than Jesus (AS)!!! qadianis believe that he travelled to Kashmir (India) of all ther places in the world and died their at age of 120! they even found a grave of him.. its amazing that Jesus (AS) who was born without father, had miracle of granting life by Allah cant reamain in a state that could make his second coming to earth!
:)
<~~~ Yacking more jaz ;)
Its not a big deal but PA and Ahmadjee have great problem with that as they are followers of Mirza Qadian and it would certainly would cast a shadow on the innumerous claims of Mirza sahib if Jesus is believed to come back..
Q.
I don't know anything about Mirza Qadian..but why is the concept of Jesu' returning hard to accept when most readily accept the concept of heaven? Isn't heaven somewhat a rebirth?
Muslims, the orthodox ones, we do acceot that Isa (pbuh) will return to lead the momins, that he never died in the first place. This is found in Al Quran and in the sound transmissions. Its only the warped sects of Islam that hold views outsdie the spectrum of Al Haq.
The Qadiani group, and I say this with no disrespet to NYA and co, is so far from Islam that for there opinion on matters of Islam is not worth a lick. The scholars of Ale E Sunnah are agreed that Jesus will lead the forces of good, and I can swear I read a hadith relating to the issue in "Signs before the day of judgement".
There is no rebirth, the glorious prophet Isa was never killed, but they were made to think it. I ask these brothers, do you feel Allah would allow one of his Rasool's to be crucified by barbarians?
Astagfurallah. This is a view of kufr, no traditional alim held such views, its agains the teachings of Quran.
Re: Re: jesus as is raised
Degas, do not talk out of your arse.. when and where have you seen me endorse Mirza Sahib’s prophethood??
Do u believe in Moses as a prophet?? Does that make you a Jew?? .
height of idiocy 
Well..
A catholic prayer.
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
Creator of Heaven and Earth
And in Jesus Christ
His only Son, Our Lord
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit
Born of the Virgin Mary
Suffered under Pontius Pilate
Was crucified, died and was buried.
On the third day, he rose again
He ascended into Heaven
and is seated at the right hand
of God, the Father Almighty.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the Communion of Saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Amen.