thta’s it??? that’s the best argument that I’m a kaffir??
I’m really disappointed.. where are the fatwas to stone me to death 
I'm a aspiring Sufi man, we dont stone ppl. We're peaceful-Allah will judge you. :)
but u just called kaffir in the last post ....
btw which sufi do u follow.. are there sub classes in sufism.. apologies if this belongs in a thread of it's own.
I'm just starting to learn about my Sufi Islamic traditions, but I am from a Nashqbandi following family. I have met Shiekh Nazim twice (!) and have done bayat with a Sheikh, but am only now learning about it. :)
mo, meri jaan
you'll make a fine sufi one day. throw someone else out of the fold of Islam will ya. it's fun to watch.
One day I will become the most powerful Muslim on earth......then you'll all suffer my wrath, except maybe 3 or 4 of you. :D
I hope I'm not in the 3 or 4 that you're going to spare o future mighty one.
Mo: I long to be number 3 in the 3-4 fold. You are number 1 and the rabid mullah can be your number 2. Mo-power to you man!!! :k:
Chal,
You can be the number 3 in my organization, after me and my little brother. :)
No mullah (frtom the Islamic right anyway) will hold any place in my organization. Yes I will employ moderate and traditional scholars to guide me in some issues, but my power will be based on eliminating the most blatant threats with force and buying the other opposition with hard earned cocaine money. :D
Mo: I am actually not looking to join any exisiting organization but would like to propose a cartel where we can jointly banish these right wing types but have equity in running our own empires. I am all for paying off the existing clergy, theya re used to it and have been for thousands of years. But I would request a mutual understanding between our groups to share this right wing serfs andmake them do the most menial of chores.
Chal,
Get your ppl to contact my people, and we can negotiate terms of any alliance.
Although obviously my organization, rich from drug trafficking, would be the domianant player.
Can we get the right wing fanatics of all faiths to play soccer against each other? :)
P.S. if he's still living.. then he must not be a human being, which means Christians were right all along?? see how easily you become fodder for the missionary.<<
PA, out of sheer curiosity, what are you views about Noah (pbuh) having lived 950 years, the story of the Prophet being put in a slumber for 100 years, waking to find the decayed carcass of his donkey but his food as fresh as ever, the story of Ashaab-e-Kah'f etc? (It's all in the scriptures)
Jesus' (pbuh) life is no more extraordinary than that of above and no more proof of his deification than that of Noah's.
jesus as is raised
if u are christian or muslim then u believe teh following:
jesus was born without a father
Allah made jesus to be born without a father
jesus was raised to the heavens
it is allahs will jesus was raised to the heavens
jesus will return
it is alllahs will that jesus will return
Whats the big deal for him to return? he isnt doing it, its Allah almighty who is conducting this and if this seems unbelievable then study your universe and the coincedental accuracy and calculation that every star, planet, atmospheric balance, chemical balance within ourselves, etc. and u will see how all these miracles cannot be mere coincidence.
The more you learn of this world/universe, the more you will realise that this is not hard for Allah, the almighty.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by *Khairun Nisa: *
PA, out of sheer curiosity, what are you views about Noah (pbuh) having lived 950 years, the story of the Prophet being put in a slumber for 100 years, waking to find the decayed carcass of his donkey but his food as fresh as ever, the story of Ashaab-e-Kah'f etc? (It's all in the scriptures)
Jesus' (pbuh) life is no more extraordinary than that of above and no more proof of his deification than that of Noah's.
[/QUOTE]
KN,
as I mentioned in ahmadjee's post on miracles that for what the Qur'an tells us plainly, we hear and obey. An immaculate conception is no less miraculous than an extended life, however when there is nothing supporting immortality or a return to this world post' "death", we have to conclude Isa did die like all other prophets before him.
There is nothing to confirm his supposed "death" either.
why would you call it 'supposed'?
If one is consistent when translating the Qur'an there is little doubt that Allah tells Isa that He will cause him to die mutavaffika (3:55).
PA, I don't doubt he will die. Mutawaffika in arabic grammer is used as future tense, with stress, i.e. will die or will be caused to die.
Lemme know if I'm wrong.
Good. now to the next important word in the same verse... rafiuka
I have found the closest meaning to be 'raise the status of' or 'elevate in position'. You are welcome to provide yours. Also remember due to the sequence they follow in the verse, this 'raising' can't happen till the first condition of mutavaffika is met.
There are other equally plausible translations of ‘wafat’ which do not necessarily imply death, such as:
To recall, take or receive an object or amount completely and entirely. For example to recall a loan or such like as per the expression: “I reclaimed (tawafayt) my goods from so and so.”
The above represent primary meanings for this verb. To take it to mean ‘death’ could perhaps be viewed as a symbolic or figurative use of the verb in the sense that we say “God took him” meaning that ‘he died’.
As for the verses under discussion, al-Tabari (d. 310H) wrote in his many-volumed commentary: “The interpreters have differed over the meaning of ‘wafat’ as mentioned by Allah in this verse. Some of them said (it means): ‘I will cause you to sleep and raise you whilst you are sleep’. This (interpretation) is reported from al-Rabi’… others have said it means: ‘I will take you from earth and raise you to myself,’ so they say that the meaning of ‘wafat’ is ‘to grasp/take’ as it is said: ‘I reclaimed (tawafayt) my goods from so and so.’ They say therefore that the meaning of ‘Inni mutawaffika wa rafiuka’ is that ‘I (Allah) will take you from earth alive’. This (interpretation) is reported from al-Waraq, al-Hasan al-Basri… (and) Ibn Jurayj and Ka’b al-Ahbar…” (Tafsir al-Tabari)
Ibn Kathir (d. 774H) said: “Many have said that the meaning of ‘wafat’ here refers to sleep.” (Tafsir Ibn Kathir)
The understanding that ‘wafat’ in these verses means ‘death’ is also considered by these commentators, ascribing this view to a few early authorities. It is reported, for example, that the Companion Ibn Abbas (r) interpreted ‘mutawaffika’ to mean that Prophet 'Isa (as) died. This, however, is the weaker of two opinions reported from him and is likely not established as his saying. In itself it is a minority understanding, whilst in modern times it is the preferred view of the late Muhammad al-Ghazali, if my memory serves me right, in his Thematic Commentary on the Qur’an published by the International Institute for Islamic Thought. The rigorously authentic view, as mentioned by al-Qurtubi (d. 671H), is that Ibn Abbas (r) understood it to mean that Allah raised Prophet 'Isa (as) without having first caused him to die in line with other commentators. The latter view being the one supported by a number of Prophetic hadith, some scholars saying that such hadith reach mutawatir level.
Of course, if one focuses on a single word it can be misinterpreted as one likes. However, the phrase used by Allah is ‘rafiuka ilaya’ (raise you to Myself) as in 3:55 or ‘rafahu Allah ilayhi’ as per 4:158. The noticeable addition of ‘ilaya’ implies a physical raising of Prophet 'Isa (as) as opposed to it meaning ‘exaltation, fame etc.’ as might be the case if one were to look at ‘rafiuka’ in isolation
Allah Almighty says:
“Allah is He Who raised (rafa’a) the heavens without any pillars that you see.” (13:2)
Now if we translate it as per your understanding it means that Allah raised the status or fame of the heavens/skies or that of Mount Sinai if one considers Qur’an 2:63.
You assume that a sequence of events is implied in the verse, probably by virtue of the conjunction ‘waw’ (and). This is not always the case. As an example, if one were to say: “I will grab the rope with my right and left hand.” Does this necessarily mean that i grabbed the rope first with my right hand and only then followed with the left? Or is the reading “I grabbed the rope with my right and left hand at the same time” equally plausible? Some early commentators, such as Qatadah, said that this is also an example of reporting the latter of the two actions first as a form of emphasis or enhancement of its importance, so although the verse states: “mutawaffika wa rafiuka” the understood meaning is: “I will raise you to Myself now (rafiuka) and cause you to die at a later stage (mutawaffika - where mutawaffika is taken to mean death in this instance).” Similar to it is related from al-Dhahak. Or, as others have said, both terms refer to one and the same action, namely the act of raising Prophet 'Isa (as) alive. Ibn Zayd said: “mutawaffika and rafiuka are one (and the same).” It is said, therefore, that even if we assume ‘mutawaffika’ to always take the meaning of ‘to cause to die’, it does not follow that this must have occurred before the act of physically raising Prophet 'Isa (as). However, this latter understanding (assuming we hold that ‘mutawaffika’ means ‘death’), could possibly be rebutted by means of Prophet 'Isa’s (as) own speech as presented at Qur’an 5:117.
The preponderant Muslim belief, as we know, is that Prophet 'Isa (as) will return, complete his life, and then die.
And Allah knows best.
Iqbal
Iqbal,
Very good explanation but due to the shortage of time I won't be able to cross check all your references at this moment, hopefully later. I did have a few questions:
**
1. From your post it seems that you do believe that the word Mutawafika means death, but as it can have some other meanings you chose to pick the others because most scholars agree upon this approach. True? If true, then it boils down to difference in opinion!
2. You mentioned there are Hadiths that support the physical ascension of Jesus (as) to heaven. The ones I have read only mention his descending from heaven as a Messiah for the Muslims. If I have missed the ones that mention ascension, can you please point them out?
3. Also, are there any Hadiths that mention what actually happened when the Romans came to pick Hazrat Isa (as), who was the person who actually got crucified & so on & so forth? I have read inconsistent stories which do not mention any Hadiths or even any authentic reporter.
4. *I have firm belief that Qur’an explains the teachings prescribed in it. One verse supports the other & they are not at conflict with each other. Do you have any other verse in Qur’an that supports the physical ascension of Hazrat Isa (as) to heaven?
*
5. ** Can you please elaborate your argument with regards to the verse 5:117? How do you think that it supports your view?
Jazak’Allah!