Re: Re: Re: jesus as is raised
If ur not a Ahmadi or Qadiani .. am bad.. but I have read always ur views defending Mirza’s here .. and it would be starnge if ur not qadiani and still believe Jesus died!
And ur anology of being one as jew if one believes in Moses is ridiculous! all muslims believe in Moses and jews but not Mirza sahib as prophet of God..
Re: Re: Re: Re: jesus as is raised
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*Originally posted by Degas: *
If ur not a Ahmadi or Qadiani .. am bad.. but I have read always ur views defending Mirza's here .. and it would be starnge if ur not qadiani and still believe Jesus died!
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I have advocated Qadiani's right to be treated fairly.. and that goes for people of other religions too... just because I don't join the bandwagon hurling insults at a personality some people here hold dear, doesn't mean i'm one of them.
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And ur anology of being one as jew if one believes in Moses is ridiculous! all muslims believe in Moses and jews but not Mirza sahib as prophet of God..
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Just because I subscribe to an idea followed by another group of people does not make me one of them. It's about ideas, not personalities or groups as many would like it to be, cuz it then becomes easy just to slander the group as a whole based on the weakest argument.
I really hope he does show up from the sky one day! Let’s see who he will lead, the Jews who are gathering in Israel preparing for his first arrival. The Christians who are helping the Jews out, hoping his second coming! Or the Muslims whom they say he will lead but can't agree on where, when or how.
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*Originally posted by Iqbal1089: *
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Originally posted by Ahmadjee:
Actually I have a reference book that quotes up to 25-26 Ulema starting from some of the Sahaba (ra) Hazrat Hasan & Hazrat Ibn e Abass (ra), some of the middle one like Imam Maalik (rh) up to some of the scholars of this age like Alaama Rahid Raza & Dr. Mahmood Hijazi of Al-Azhar who represent the view, keeping in mind the Hadiths, that Hazrat Isa (as) died a natural death. I will be more than happy to give you some of the references if you would like.
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Please do, it will be interesting to look at.
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I too would be interested in looking at them.
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*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *
<~~~ Jazzy :)
Now think.
We are here because God made us in his image. Meaning being that he granted us choice. We make our own choices. God gave us the grace to decide our own destiny. Was his idea.
So... my thinking is that.. yeah... right now... be a good thing that God had multiple partners...(priests), (imans), (monks)... to remind us of HIS command to love one another.
And most importantly to have faith.
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AAG, how a "priest", "imam", "monk" can become God's partner? They don't have any power in "deciding" someone's fate, not even their own, they can't control what GOD can etc. Would you mind defining "partner"?
FYI: Traffic Signs that you see on road sides are not partner with Department of Public Safety, they are merely tools to get done what DPS wants to.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: jesus as is raised
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*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
I have advocated Qadiani's right to be treated fairly.. and that goes for people of other religions too... just because I don't join the bandwagon hurling insults at a personality some people here hold dear, doesn't mean i'm one of them.
Just because I subscribe to an idea followed by another group of people does not make me one of them. It's about ideas, not personalities or groups as many would like it to be, cuz it then becomes easy just to slander the group as a whole based on the weakest argument.
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I admire ur rational judgement as far as unfair treatment of Qadianis and their persecusion by some idiots but in this thread question is about a faith question.. as u say ur not qadiani do u belive in Mirza sahib claims such as :
Mirza is the promised messiah since Jesus (AS) has died.
Did Jesus migrated to Sri Nagar , Kashmir and lived in the beautiful valley leaving his followers lurking in beliefs that he is Son Of God! and lived upto 120 years and eventually Maulvi Noor was sent by Mirza and actually found grave of Jesus (AS)!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: jesus as is raised
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Degas: *
do u belive in Mirza sahib claims such as :
Mirza is the promised messiah since Jesus (AS) has died.
Did Jesus migrated to Sri Nagar , Kashmir and lived in the beautiful valley leaving his followers lurking in beliefs that he is Son Of God! and lived upto 120 years and eventually Maulvi Noor was sent by Mirza and actually found grave of Jesus (AS)!
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hahah so it's inquisition time??
I haven't read much on Mirza Sahib, so I do not know about his claims. In my ongoing study of Islam I haven't found compelling evidence pointing to a return of some Messiah, therefore the point is moot.
The Qur'an tells us that Jesus died. Not at the cross and not at the hands of his persecutors who could not kill him. How long he actually lived afterwards, where he died and where he was buried is anybody's guess... The Qur'an doesn't go into those details, and for what it's worth it doesn't for several other prophets too.
Frankly I find the speculations surrounding a burial place kinda useless in making me a good Muslim.
Salam to all
I’ve been reading this forum for a while and found it very interesting. Here is what I found about Hazrat Isa in The Holly Quran and Ahadis. I hope it will help. We can find many verses in The Quran which show that every one either he is a prophet or not will taste the death.
Evidence in Quran
"We granted not abiding life to any human being before thee. If then thou shouldst die, shall they have abiding life?" (21:35)
"And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, (all) Messengers have passed away before him. If then he die or be slain, will you turn your back on your heels?" (3:145)
And later we find
· "When Allah said, O Jesus, I will cause you to die and will raise you to myself, and will clear thee of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection, then to Me shall be your return and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ." (3:56)
In this vers we have a word mutawaffi which is discussed many times here but I do wish to quote Zamakhshari (467-538 A.H), an Arab linguist of great repute says, "Mutawaffika means, I will protect you from being killed by the people and will grant you full lease of life ordained for you, and will cause you to die a natural death not being killed (Kashshaf )
The Quran is quite clear that Hadhrat Isaas has passed away, and gives no support to the concept of Hadhrat Isa physically going to heaven. Some specific verses will now be considered:
· Jesus said, I am a servant of Allah. He has given me the Book and made me a prophet. And He has made me blessed where so ever I may be and has enjoined on me prayer and alms-giving so long as I live. He has made me dutiful toward my mother, and He has not made me haughty and unblessed. Peace was on me the day I was born, and peace there shall be on the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again." (19:31-4)
The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; surely Messengers like unto him had indeed passed away before him. And his mother was a truthful woman. They both used to eat food.
Evidence in the Hadith
Imam Bukhari reports:
"Abdullah Bin Abbas narrated that Abu Bakr came out while Umar was conversing with the people. He said to Umar to sit but he refused to comply with. So, the people turned towards him (Abu Bakr) and left Umar. Then Abu Bakr said: Whoever amongst you worshipped Muhammad, let him know that Muhammad is dead, and whoever amongst you worshipped Allah, let him know that Allah is Living, there is no death for Him. Allah has said, `And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, all Messengers have passed away before him...' The narrator says, by God, the people did not know that God had sent down this verse until Abu Bakr has recited it. So, the people in their entirety learnt it from him; then, whosoever amongst the people heard it recited it. Then Saeed Bin Musayyeb has told me, that Umar swearing by God said, did not know of this verse till he heard it from Abu Bakr, and consequently his legs could not support him, he staggered and fell down in an outburst of grief." (Bukhari Kitabun Nabiyye Ila Kisra Wa Qaisara, Musnad Imam Abu Hanifa, p. 188, Hamamul Islamiyya, p. 54, Bukhari, Vol. 2, Manaqib Abu Bakr)
1."If Moses and Jesus had been alive, they would have had to believe in me and follow me." (Zurqani, Vol. VI, p. 54, Tibrani Kabeer, Alyawaqeet Wal Jawahir, Vol. II, p. 23)
2.During his last illness, the Holy ProphetSAW said to his daughter Hadhrat Fatimara:
"Once in every year, Gabriel recited the Quran to me. This year he recited twice. He also told me that every succeeding prophet has lived to half the age of his predecessor. He told me that Jesus, son of Mary, lived to 120 years. Therefore, I think, I may live to about 60 years." (Mawahib-ud-Duniya by Qastalani, Vol. I, p. 42, Kanzul Ummal Vol. 6, p. 160)
3.If Jesus and Moses had been alive, they would have had no choice but to follow me." (Kathir vol II, p 245 and al yawaqit wal Jawahir, part 2, page 24).
4."Jesus son of Mary lived for 120 years, and I see myself as only entering upon the beginning of the sixties." (Kanz al Ummal, part 6, p.120).
All this show that Hazrat Isa live dand died like every human being and Bible say it too that a man with an earthly body can not go to heaven ( I do not remember chapter or vers no). I hope this help a bit
Muslims are not at a loss as for when Isa (pbuh) wil return. They will return to kill the dajjal at the end of time, and to bring the end of the evils of Gog and Magog-the beasts at the end of time.
This is found in the book "THE SIGNS BEFORE THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT", wghich uses sound sources as reported in the works of Imam Bukhari (Kitab al Anbiya), Imam Muslim (kitab Al Fitan wa Ashrat al sa'ah, AND Kitab al Iman, and the collection of hadith my Ahmad, in the work titled Musnad.
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*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
AAG, how a "priest", "imam", "monk" can become God's partner? They don't have any power in "deciding" someone's fate, not even their own, they can't control what GOD can etc. Would you mind defining "partner"?
FYI: Traffic Signs that you see on road sides are not partner with Department of Public Safety, they are merely tools to get done what DPS wants to.
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Good point bro. :)
Dear Sirs,
Because they teach us of morality. One learns from their messages right and wrong, what is holy to God, and what is not.
They are our Fathers and Mothers. OUR teachers. OUR guides.
In this they are partners of God.
Would you agree?
If you wish to call them tools, rather than partners.. I have no agrument with your words. Depends on ones view...
Couldn't a tool of God be considered a partner to God's teaching?
Argue if you think I am wrong.
BTW...I expect a HUGE argument!! Absolutely.
My original statement was that Abraham, Jesu', and Mohammad were IMHO partners of God.
^No I do NOT agree. From teachers and guiders, how all of a sudden they became partners?
the term tools was used, just to make a point.
NYfella?
Think about the concept.
Teacher.
Guide.
Tool.
Think about the words... teacher, guide, tool.
Think about the concensus of the words.
Define the difference?
Ponder the similarities of partner.
Then Argue I am wrong, and why?
Anyway...
Nice Forum. Good replies to the topic :) of Jesu'.
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*Originally posted by AvgAmericanGirl: *
Dear Sirs,
Because they teach us of morality. One learns from their messages right and wrong, what is holy to God, and what is not.
They are our Fathers and Mothers. OUR teachers. OUR guides.
In this they are partners of God.
Would you agree?
If you wish to call them tools, rather than partners.. I have no agrument with your words. Depends on ones view...
Couldn't a tool of God be considered a partner to God's teaching?
Argue if you think I am wrong.
BTW...I expect a HUGE argument!! Absolutely.
My original statement was that Abraham, Jesu', and Mohammad were IMHO partners of God.
[/QUOTE]
**This rise many more question
i) Is Gabriel consider tool of God also? And if Gabriel is not a tool of God then why was he/she/it sent as an intermediate between the Prophet and Al mighty God? And if Gabriel was a tool then why do you need Prophet?
as for tool becoming synonym to partners, I don’t know how there is a link between these 2. maybe you should elaborate more.
ii) my second Q: You manipulate a tool, does this mean God manipulate his tool(prophets) to preach religion? wouldn’t it be easier for god to manipulate his human/flock who are also tool to be born and following the prescribe religion and having what it required of him/her? **
Exactly.
God understands what humans do not. He does things people cannot understand.
So..we see things as we understand them.
Yes, I still think that a tool of good...
I want a really good argument why... Moses, Mohammand and Jesus are not brothers.
Because my heart tells me they are.
Sis AvgAmericanGirl
I was expecting some elaboration from your on your prophet-tool concept but anyway...I always believed all the prophets were brothers
The biggest argument for.... Tools.....
Is Abraham in my thinking.
God's tool for humanity. Religion. His idea.
<~~not mine. his.
Why wouldn't God take a deciple, a person, and expect that one to tell of him? I suppose you can consider that a tool.
mmmm, then came Jesu'..... perhaps another tool.
Mohammad..again, same moral teachings.
Think about it.
Why do you think God use Tool(Prophet) to teach mankind? Wouldn’t it be better for God to inspire HIS people to the religion? In that way God can have 100 submission.
Yes, probobly. But? Who can say
I don't think anyone can. Ever.
I believe in god's holy spiriit.
Always,
Everywhere.
I think if one believes in good, they also believe in God.
May god bless you always, and everywhere you look.