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So far you have not come up with any plausible answer to the question posted or the argument at hand.
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I didn't see any question. I saw a statement that those who ponder on how the world around us works will find God and if they don't they must be blind.
If you want to discuss the "Design argument or Complex universe argument for existense of God" then please go ahead and say so. It's an old argument between theists and atheists and I would be happy to hear your thoughts on it.
Calling someone names before you even had a proper argument .......... the next best thing to being right.
I didn't see any question. I saw a statement that those who ponder on how the world around us works will find God and if they don't they must be blind.
If you want to discuss the "Design argument or Complex universe argument for existense of God" then please go ahead and say so. It's an old argument between theists and atheists and I would be happy to hear your thoughts on it.
**Calling someone names **before you even had a proper argument .......... the next best thing to being right.
Calling someone names? Explain please.
If you do not see the title of thread as question then...
....should we ask Moderators to to put a question mark at the end? Would this help? Its a question from me by the way! ;-)
I am sorry but I did not get it. Both Quran and Bible talk about the creation of universe, proving that universe is not infinite. How does an infinite universe become the only logical proof of existance of God..
or did I miss the comment all together
excellent post, bhaijaan. Allah(swt) created everything- even a tiny particle- without Allah(swt) nothing would be possible. At least people should acknowledge everything was created by muslim god not any other god.
hmm I find it really hard people cannot believe in god. Really really hard. You see, over the years I have become really skeptical of all religions, however I have never once doubted God.
So you agree that science falls short and can't give answers to where matters of higher beings are concerned right?
To an extent that is correct. Do I expect science to ever PROVE that a GOD exisits or does heaven/hell exist? I don't think so atleast not in our lifetime. Then they are a few things that I believe science can disprove about religion. For example, a talking snake as believed in chrisitianity, is surely hard to belive.
So we deduce that science 'proves' or it 'disproves'. Period.
**But a mere absence of scientific proof, for sure, does not mean denial of the existence of God. It just means that there is no scientific proof. **The lack of scientific proof is just showing us our limitations. Thats why its called "Al-ghaib". We will never have the knowledge that is 'hidden' from us.
I agree. Just because there is no proof, doesn't mean something does not exist. But then you can make the same argument about folklore stuff like flying spgahetti monsters etc. How do we know they didn't create the world? So while I understand and agree with what you're saying, it just opens up a pandoras box on the different possibilities.
After all science can only look at measurable, quantifiable parameters. Mass, weight, size(s) of several kinds, illumination, energy and many more. But Allah is transcendent. Beyond anything we can imagine - then how can some existence that's is beyond anything we can imagine be measured with our meager scientific knowledge?
Well for that to be true, first you have to assume that such an entity exists (Allah, God etc). And how can you prove considering you just said we don't have the scientific knowledge. So it's a catch 22.
hmm I find it really hard people cannot believe in god. Really really hard. You see, over the years I have become really skeptical of all religions, however I have never once doubted God.
I agree with you. While I have also become extremely cynical about organized religions, there has to be a super-being that cuased our exisistence. There just has to be even though we can't prove it scientifically.
For all the people here who want to use a scientific method of determining whether it is better or worse to believe in God ... use Occam's Razor.
Considering that the razor is often wielded as an argument against theism, why don't you make your point about God's existense based on Occam's razor and we will continue from there.
BTW, another interesting argument comes similar to the Heisenberg's uncertainty principle (applied to Theology here). It is thought that an all powerful, all knowing God that is ever present beyond our space/time, ceases to be ever present as soon as he interferes in our space/time (by becoming part of it).
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If you do not see the title of thread as question then...
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Sorry thought you were talking about the argument by fairytale (about Design argument).
About the topic of the title, first of all I am agnostic not an atheist. Now in the question "Prove there is no Allah", please define "Allah" for everyone. What an atheist will tell you about this question is that you cannot prove an unprovable and that burden of proof lies with someone making a claim.
Here is the crux of this discussion. The very reason you cannot claim God exists is the same reason people cannot claim it doesn't. Because God by definition is immeasurable, and as proofs requires tangible/measurable data. Hence, the question to prove or disprove existense of God is fundamentally flawed.
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there has to be a super-being that cuased our exisistence. There just has to be even though we can't prove it scientifically.
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You mean there has to be .............. an answer?. And you mean you would like to believe that there is. I am interested to know why you think there has to be.
^ Don't you think God is the Most Beautiful?
Looking at diversity of live/resources in earth and just some spectacular phenonmenon in our universe, yes God (or whatever?!?) has to be the Most Beatiful. On the other hand, looking at its creation specifically mankind, then no.
In the "post-Big Bang" situation, we can see a lot of similarities between the difinition of God (Noor) provided by theology and the definition of Energy provided by science. And I think both are referring to the same thing. I am quoting James Ray here from The Secret.
"At the most basic level, everything in our Universe is energy".
"look at both sides of the energy coin. Ask a physicist, What is energy? and he will say, Energy has always been, and will always be, it can not be created or destroyed, it's always moving into form, through form and out of form. Now, ask a theologian, What is God? and he will tell you, Has always been and will always be, He was not created and He can not be destroyed. He is always moving through us. if he is always moving through us, then it stands to reason, He moves into form, through form and out of form, because we do."
Now I think the biggest challenge for us and science is to come to terms with this ever-existing God/Universe/Energy/Whatever .... if we believe in that or keep looking for the answers the conventional way.
No, I was born a Muslim but not anymore. I tried quite long and hard to remain a muslim, went through denial first and I tried to find answers from many websites, many scholars and met some really brilliant/nice muslims as well as some jerks on the way. But I never found asnwers, I only found justifications.
Leaving your religion (Islam) is very hard decision because in a country like Pakistan, even your close family and friends cannot comprehend or respect that. Unless you hide your beliefs, you can easily be socially outcast and some people even threatened violence. People assume that the person is misguided or ignorant but just cannot seem to comprehend that someone who spent years studying not only Islam but other religions and theology in general, can believe in anything other than Islam. One of the typical response after they find out that I know what I am talking about is to question my intellectual honesty or my reasons i.e I am just doing it for the "worldly pleasures" or that "my heart has been sealed", etc etc. The monopoly that some Muslims claim on "absolute truth" is one of the biggest turn offs for me.
However, some muslims that I met, acknowledge the fact that our faith or belief is our "opinion" about some basic yet complex human questions. They have complete faith in Islam but acknowledge that everyone can reach a different conclusion on their soul searching quest. This is not George Bush's "With us or against us" war.
Not me personally but you said this about atheists in the discussion.
“I wonder why even all of you have to answer these questions to those ppl who do not want to understand and learn anything”.
Why would you start your argument calling people “they don’t want to understand or learn (they are either arrogant or idiot or both)”. But in case, you didn’t mean to imply what I though, then I apologize.
No, I was born a Muslim but not anymore. I tried quite long and hard to remain a muslim, went through denial first and I tried to find answers from many websites, many scholars and met some really brilliant/nice muslims as well as some jerks on the way. But I never found asnwers, I only found justifications.
Leaving your religion (Islam) is very hard decision because in a country like Pakistan, even your close family and friends cannot comprehend or respect that. Unless you hide your beliefs, you can easily be socially outcast and some people even threatened violence. People assume that the person is misguided or ignorant but just cannot seem to comprehend that someone who spent years studying not only Islam but other religions and theology in general, can believe in anything other than Islam. One of the typical response after they find out that I know what I am talking about is to question my intellectual honesty or my reasons i.e I am just doing it for the "worldly pleasures" or that "my heart has been sealed", etc etc. The monopoly that some Muslims claim on "absolute truth" is one of the biggest turn offs for me.
However, some muslims that I met, acknowledge the fact that our faith or belief is our "opinion" about some basic yet complex human questions. They have complete faith in Islam but acknowledge that everyone can reach a different conclusion on their soul searching quest. This is not George Bush's "With us or against us" war.
hmmm i can say nothing but just feel sorry for you. You made a wrong decision in haste. Now dont tell me you spent 10 yrs in looking for answers. Coz even if you had spent 10 yrs , it worthed it.
Looking at diversity of live/resources in earth and just some spectacular phenonmenon in our universe, yes God (or whatever?!?) has to be the Most Beatiful. On the other hand, looking at its creation specifically mankind, then no.
Peace Yea_Boii
When you look to something beautiful do you admire it? If it is Most Beautiful will you love it?
