Proud Pakistani?

[saieen]

Re: Proud Pakistani?

^
tell me about it. just bcos they are friends with indians in western countries does not mean that ground reality in india is the same. i've seen that indians have more self respect and love for their country than pakistanis have for pak. even at times when indians are thirsty for pakistani blood...pakistanis are looking for opportunities to massage indian balls to get out some benefits.

and expat pakistanis are the best when it comes to loving india...and they'll let pak go to hell but not india. god forbids...if something happened to their love-donkey SRK / john ibrahim...our girls will commit suicide in bulks by eating 1 plate full of neehari with naam.

[notorious]

^you know what would be fantastic? if the family members of Pakistanis born outside Pakistan would also not consider them as Pakistanis, so maybe then they would stop forcing them into choices they don't even want

One thing I noticed, that in some area's in Pakistan, like Islamabad and Rawalpindi, Pakistanis are less strict in life than our family members who live in Kashmir. And most of our family members who live out of Pakistan, are often more strict in life than the Pakistanis living in Pakistan itself.

Everyone has a different opinion, I personally don't really like Indian movies that much, I have watched many with my family and I still have some, but I don't really like them that much. They have far too much drama, nothing subtle. I've never even seen one Pakistani or India movie which is a bit realistic, always happy endings, always too much drama, the acting is over the top. But just because one Pakistani would watch an Indian movie, wouldn't mean that that person isn't Pakistani, also being born outside Pakistan doesn't take the fact away, that your genes are Pakistani, you belong nowhere, the people always regard you as a foreigner in the country where you were born because of your Pakistani body, and people in Pakistan itself regard you as a forgeigner because of your mind, your ideas which are often too foreign for them.

I have wished not to be of Pakistani origin many times when I've had family problems. I figured that then I would have had less problems, because I would be able to make my own choices without having the difficulties. I've often even fantasized that Pakistanis and Indians would just kill each other, whenever I was angry with my family. But I can't blame all my problems on Pakistan, that's what I've learnt.

I hope my parents find someone like CM or saieen who will greatly influence their thoughts so they will stop seeing me as a Pakistani and won't have problems with any of my life choices any more. though some of my family members do look like that photo (which saieen is using), they don't all think the same way.

[notorious]

How about taking away all the nationalities of the world, and calling everyone 'international'. There'd be no more fights or anything. People would leave each other alone. I'd like to say, I'm international instead of Dutch (born in Holland) or Pakistani.

[notorious]

The fights and problems won't ever stop in the world until Qiyamat. There will always be something somewhere. I write stories myself, I sometimes give my stories a negative ending, even though I like the character with a negative ending, because the fact of life is, that very often many people suffer for nothing. I've had people die or mutilated in one way or another in a few stories, though I liked them, because the facts in real life are, that many innocent people suffer one way or another or when someone makes even a small mistake, that person can even be punished too severely. That's life. Pakistan and India will always have problems, the whole world will always have problems. Happy endings don't excist, even if we do like them in stories or movies sometimes.

[somehowcollide]

Re: Proud Pakistani?

Quite and interesting and insightful perspective CM, and I would be lying if I said that it was without merit.

[Reha]

Last time i checked this was a Pakistani forum and i have every right to be posting here, i find it very crude of you to be asking that of me yet complain about my attitude, hypocrisy at its finest.

Dear, your the one confused i know who i am and where i originate from.

Im Ali whose family originate from Neelam Valley, Kashmir. Our language is classed as a dardic language(Koshur/kashmir) unlike all other Indian languages. Yes i consider myself vastly different to Indian as do all Kashmiri's that i've met. Unlike you we know our place and country aswell which people we have close bonds with.

No offence their was no 'India' before 1948. Its name got invented by the British and before that it was known as 'Bharat'. Mughals tried to unify bharat for their own purposes but this was purely an image, as provinces in the west of Bharat were vastly differnent to those of the East.

Im Pakistani and a proud one at that, dear your awfully confused, how about you marry an Indian and put all your confusion to rest. One less wannabe Indian to deal with. Are you mohajir by any chance? Cause that would explain your affinity for Indians and India.

The blood that flows through every proud Pakistani veins is of white and green colour but i have a feeling yours has a fair amount of orange aswell with a slight tinge of blue. Dont ever call me an Indian again, you can call me many things but Indian is one name that i won't tolerate.

Ignorance at its finest...Shamu...Ive deemed you unworthy of a response.

How can I argue with someone so ill-equipped?

[Spock]

Re: Proud Pakistani?

If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

[Reha]

@CM

Let’s get a few things straight right off the bat. This is not a Pakistani forum or website. This is an expat-Pakistani website or forum. Please don't confuse the two. So views expressed are naturally skewed and unrealistic. Secondly being Pakistani is not an ethnicity. It is a nationality. Meaning you either hold the nationality or you don't. Just because your parents are Pakistani does not mean you are. Those of the expats that constitute a majority of this site have grown up (in some cases were born) in the west and visit Pakistan during the summer.

*Again, its the saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame tired old issue with you so-called Pakistanis. No, you're not a Pakistani because of this, No, you're not a Pakistani because of that. WTH? Who died and made you God? You can defend who you "bloody" well want, but you have no right to tell anyone who they are or not. Its frankly not your place to say because its not like you're living in Pakistan yourself buddy. You dont live in Pakistan yourself but want to classify other people as Pakistani or non-Pakistani. *

You as an expat Pakistan can be proud of your country can be extremely protective. But frankly you don't know much about the nation as you haven't lived there, gone to school there etc. Your source of information is based on knowledge derived from a biased system that produces more opinion than fact. Case being internet forum, the media and what your chachi or mamu said over the phone yesterday.

*THIS is exactly what I mean. You think we're living in a box? Get off your high horse and read what I wrote. Your freaking self-righteous attitude has blinded you quite a bit. You're a little peeved because Im calling myself Pakistani and dont want to hear what Im saying...typical, so very typical. *

Think of it this way. You have spent what 4 months out of 10 years in DRC (Congo) I hardly think you will find yourself to be competent to discuss the local political/economic/social issues in the country. The same applies to Pakistan. Just because your skin is brown or your parents are from Pakistan does not make you competent to discuss the issues and more importantly gives you special insight into the country. Rather it is a hindrance.

*I think you may have jungle fever. You're the type of person who will never admit there is a problem that needs fixing. YOu want to point fingers and say "you've no right to critisize because of blah blah blah". This attitude will definitely help Pakistan...in fact its helping Pakistan right now...get no where. *

Then comes the issue of living in the country and how that is important. Honestly yes it is very important. Living in an area gives you special insight. It gives you more than just stories. In my case I have been in Darfur for 1 year. I eat members of the Save Darfur Coalition alive in debates, because I am on the ground. I don't speak in abstract notions and theory. I speak from real life experience. I always butcher quotes and sayings, but there is one that says something along the lines of books and education are no replacement for real life experience.

*Wonderful work dear! Im sure thats what this whole paragraph was about. As for the last bit, there is no replacement for real life experience but when something makes sense, it makes sense. And if you choose to ignore it because (HOLD YOUR BREATH, GOD FORBID) it comes from a Western-born Pakistani, then it makes you useless. If you cant listen to reason, then what good are you? Not at all. *

The same applies to Pakistan and the feelings and emotions conjured up from living there. If you don't live there you have no idea what I am talking about. It’s like saying you don't live in Israel border towns. You don't know the feelings people have when they hear that there was a rocket attack from Gaza near your child’s school. You don't live there. You can only assume this stuff. You can not feel it acutely like they do. Living in a location is very important. Since you don't, your opinions aren't as valuable or equal.

You're in Congo, Egypt, etc. I think your paragraph proves that your POV is null and void because you dont live in Pakistan. Since you dont, lets strike this and move on shall we? If you read my whole thread, you would have understood what I meant up until now. But it seems like you didnt so please do that. My point was that people sitting abroad cannot promote hatred for India and play the blame game because all it does is make things worse. If you're not living there, you cant say India shoud go to hell because Im sure you're not the one thats suffering there right now. You're not and therefore saying "we shouldnt make peace" is stupid.

Being a proud Pakistani means different things to different people. But the underlying factor is being proud of your heritage and defending what you consider your own. You will find many expat Pakistanis on this forum and Pakistanis in Pakistan who don't do that. It’s the new age western philosophy. Pick on Islam and Pakistan for the fault of a few people. It’s very evident on this forum, esp. from the guys who run the show. That is not being a proud Pakistani. That is actually a hidden desire to be someone from another country.

Real Pakistanis feel shame when they hear negative news about Pakistan. Hearing the news in Pakistan is depressing. I don't bother reading Pakistani news papers anymore. Others take it and move on. Hell there are some news pieces on this website, when linked, I just shut off the internet and head out to an IDP camp so that the situation in Pakistan doesn't seem so bleak. But hell you will never hear me or my friend mocking Pakistan and its leadership or insulting it. I hate the Bhutto clan, but in the office I defend Zardari.

*I hear so-called real Pakistani insulting Bhutto, Zardari all the time. Where are you? *

Regardless of what others say I am a Pakistani, he is my President. I will defend whatever I bloody well can.

I will illustrate an example that Proud Pakistanis miss. Americans will mock Bush. They will ridicule him, but like hell they would mock or ridicule their people or their nation. Expat-Pakistanis who live in the West admire this trait yet don't have the wisdom to implement it. That of course being based on the fact that you don't live in Pakistan and are largely disconnected from Pakistan.

Lastly if you think the Government of India or Indians will be happy with ever lasting peace with Pakistan, I have a bridge to sell you in the Darfur desert. Interested?

*Funny guy, you should read my entire thread and then tell me what you think. *

[Reha]

its the opposite...pakistanis are desperate to have peace with india....lugta hai mar jaye gi pakistani nation agar peace-process kaamyaab na hua india ke sath.

hamaray loag physicall to azaad ho chukay hain india se...mentally abhi bhi india ke hi ghulaam hain.

Saieen, phir agaye? You'd make a horrible politician so I would suggest not to quit your day job.

Anyway, its not just about having peace with India. You can hate India all you want, its pretty evident that you do. In fact, let me help you with that.

SAIEEN HATES INDIANS AND EVERYTHING INDIAN.

Happy now? Good. Im sure you feel much better about that.

My point is that after all the bloodshed of Muslim people, there should be a way that doesnt involve it. Yeah, sounds almost naive to people who love war and blood. Why? Because again, people like Saieen who sit from the comfort of their home and curse India/other countries and promote war arent the ones dying. Its a weak thing to do...promote hatred when you're not the one fighting it. If you ask the people WHO ACTUALLY MATTER, do you think it matters to them who is at fault anymore? No. But this specific point of not looking past your own selfish need to hate India/America/etc is what stops us from being better people.

[Reha]

@PSquared

I read somewhere "When there is a conflict between emotions and logic, emotions will almost always win". I agree with your pov here to a great extent but I dont argue or try to concinve anyone on these issues anymore. Most desi people (Indo-Pak both) have such emotional associations with this issue that they seem to go blind with logical aspects of it (some of the replies here). They look so reasonable and sensible otherwise but turn out to be someone else in an instant when this subject comes up (example of your friend in your first post). I would suggest just let it go and dont even try to convince. It will attract more negativity towards you. (see next post)

I know what you're saying is right.

Im just so tired of these surging emotions that lead to nothing but more problems!

They're not ones sending their men to war but are all for fighting it, hypocritical isnt it?

[Monk]

Re: Proud Pakistani?

PS what if I steal your car, paint tattoos on it, drive it to your home as "my own car" and tell you "you should make peace with me for better future"

[Reha]

Re: Proud Pakistani?

PM, I realize what you're saying. I completely do.

Lekin all Im saying is we cant continue to let innocent people die even if isnt our fault.

This has to come to an end someday.

[Monk]

Re: Proud Pakistani?

Right!
unfortunately, either we don;t know how or we are not capable of getting our right in a peace full way.

Second, if we had no back bone back in days India would have taken over the whole country.
They use to think we will collapse in few years or so.
Still I have heard indias saying "pakistan is such a tiny country"
I DO tell them "dude its quality not quantity!!
We can kick butt and you guys should know it by now"

Yes innocent should never die!!!!!!!
But If lose our pride, if we give uo whats our. I mean we will broken into million pieces.

[somehowcollide]

Re: Proud Pakistani?

Oh dear PSquared, you certainly know how to stir up controversy don't you?

As an American born Pakistani, I am extremely empathetic to your views and opinions. On countless occasions I've felt just like you. Just like the "real" Pakistanis tell us that we don't know what its like to walk in their shoes, they have no idea what its like to be in ours. The balance between cultures, east and west, values, lifestyles - its NOT easy. Can you imagine the backlash if we said "I'm American first and Pakistani second"? And that is precisely what many of them want us to do.

Likewise, I cannot empathize with their position, their views, etc.

And alllll of this India vs Pakistan thing. Man, I hate it. I really do. I feel so strongly against it, that I can't even engage myself in a real discussion...

[Reha]

Re: Proud Pakistani?

We cannot give up what is ours and I agree. But is this the best way to protect it?

[Reha]

Re: Proud Pakistani?

SHC, I know Im a trouble maker.

A) If we say we're American, we've supposedly forgotten our heritage and are ABCDs.

B) If we say we're Pakistani, we're supposedly wrong because we werent born in Pakistan.

[somehowcollide]

SHC, I know Im a trouble maker.

A) If we say we're American, we've supposedly forgotten our heritage and are ABCDs.

B) If we say we're Pakistani, we're supposedly wrong because we werent born in Pakistan.

Yes, that is exactly what I was attempting to get at above. And you've articulated it well.

[CM]

Again, its the saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaame tired old issue with you so-called Pakistanis. No, you're not a Pakistani because of this, No, you're not a Pakistani because of that. WTH? Who died and made you God? You can defend who you "bloody" well want, but you have no right to tell anyone who they are or not. Its frankly not your place to say because its not like you're living in Pakistan yourself buddy. You dont live in Pakistan yourself but want to classify other people as Pakistani or non-Pakistani.

I am wondering why you think this was directed all at you? It wasn't. It was a general statement to everybody reading the thread and who have posted with their various view points. Its not an issue of classification, but rather of reality. Look identity is a personal thing, one can define him or herself as they wish. Doesn't make it true. Its a simple statement, just because one is born to Pakistani parents does not make you Pakistani. Those who are born and raised abroad are different people all together. This does not apply to Pakistanis only.

Where did you think the terms, Banana (Chinese - yellow on the outside, white on the inside), Coconut (Desi - Brown on the outside, white on the inside) and Oreo (African - Black on the outside, white on the inside) came from? Because there is a difference.

[quote]
THIS is exactly what I mean. You think we're living in a box? Get off your high horse and read what I wrote. Your freaking self-righteous attitude has blinded you quite a bit. You're a little peeved because Im calling myself Pakistani and dont want to hear what Im saying...typical, so very typical.
[/quote]

I am not peeved because you call yourself Pakistani. This is an internet discussion. Importance is minimal in this case. You are welcome to call yourself whatever it is you wish. It doesn't mean that people have to accept it. And I reiterate my original point, this wasn't directed at you, so no need to get your panties in a bunch.

[quote]
I think you may have jungle fever. You're the type of person who will never admit there is a problem that needs fixing. YOu want to point fingers and say "you've no right to critisize because of blah blah blah". This attitude will definitely help Pakistan...in fact its helping Pakistan right now...get no where.
[/quote]

And people say women aren't involved in character assassination on these forums, though this does remind me of an arguement with my ex. You by any chance from Oman?

[quote]
Wonderful work dear! Im sure thats what this whole paragraph was about. As for the last bit, there is no replacement for real life experience but when something makes sense, it makes sense. And if you choose to ignore it because (HOLD YOUR BREATH, GOD FORBID) it comes from a Western-born Pakistani, then it makes you useless. If you cant listen to reason, then what good are you? Not at all.
[/quote]

Again this is not directed at you. It was a general statement to all. Even if it makes sense, it doesn't change the fact that books and telephone calls do not substitute on the ground real life experiences. You can apply that to all walks of life, from work, school, marriage, etc.

[quote]
You're in Congo, Egypt, etc. I think your paragraph proves that your POV is null and void because you dont live in Pakistan. Since you dont, lets strike this and move on shall we? If you read my whole thread, you would have understood what I meant up until now. But it seems like you didnt so please do that. My point was that people sitting abroad cannot promote hatred for India and play the blame game because all it does is make things worse. If you're not living there, you cant say India shoud go to hell because Im sure you're not the one thats suffering there right now. You're not and therefore saying "we shouldnt make peace" is stupid.
[/quote]

The Indian equation is something rather different and part of a political debate. If you wish to discuss the desire for peace and the real on the ground realities, I am game. Just consider the concept first.

[quote]
I hear so-called real Pakistani insulting Bhutto, Zardari all the time. Where are you?
[/quote]

Sleeping I bet. Or getting shot at. You would have to be more precise. I could have been taking a shower at that time.

[quote]
Funny guy, you should read my entire thread and then tell me what you think.
[/QUOTE]

Again it wasn't about you. Seriously whats with desi women and their ever growing image of self-importance.

[Reha]

@CM

I am wondering why you think this was directed all at you? It wasn’t. It was a general statement to everybody reading the thread and who have posted with their various view points. Its not an issue of classification, but rather of reality. Look identity is a personal thing, one can define him or herself as they wish. Doesn’t make it true. Its a simple statement, just because one is born to Pakistani parents does not make you Pakistani. Those who are born and raised abroad are different people all together. This does not apply to Pakistanis only.

One can define him or her as they wish, correct. You can classify yourself as you wish, correct. However, what my nationality is or isnt will not and is not defined by someone living in Congo. Simple.

Where did you think the terms, Banana (Chinese - yellow on the outside, white on the inside), Coconut (Desi - Brown on the outside, white on the inside) and Oreo (African - Black on the outside, white on the inside) came from? Because there is a difference.

**Im not going to respond to that. **

I am not peeved because you call yourself Pakistani. This is an internet discussion. Importance is minimal in this case. You are welcome to call yourself whatever it is you wish. It doesn’t mean that people have to accept it. And I reiterate my original point, this wasn’t directed at you, so no need to get your panties in a bunch.

**If it wasnt aimed at me, great. You can say what you wish as well, doesnt mean people have to accept it or that it is true. As for the last bit, Im tempted but I wont touch that with a ten foot pole right now. **

And people say women aren’t involved in character assassination on these forums, though this does remind me of an arguement with my ex. You by any chance from Oman?

**Men are just as guilty. When you choose to put your ideas voluntarily on a public forum, you’re asking for it. No, Im not your ex. **

The Indian equation is something rather different and part of a political debate. If you wish to discuss the desire for peace and the real on the ground realities, I am game. Just consider the concept first.

**Considered. And you might not want to hear what I have to say. **

Sleeping I bet. Or getting shot at. You would have to be more precise. I could have been taking a shower at that time.

:aq: Tell me how this relates to the topic and you get a cookie!

Again it wasn’t about you. Seriously whats with desi women and their ever growing image of self-importance.

Its not about self-importance. Whats with desi men and thinking all the women in the world are running after them? I posted a thread and assumed you were responding to me. If you werent, no harm done. Forget about it. Goodness!

[CM]

One can define him or her as they wish, correct. You can classify yourself as you wish, correct. However, what my nationality is or isnt will not and is not defined by someone living in Congo. Simple.

The way you identify yourself is not dependent on what I say or someone else says on the internet. But that doesn't change the fact that individuals born and raised in the West or in China or Africa are a different breed from those who are raised in Pakistan. And that distinction is very striking when it comes to issues of national pride and empathy for ones nation.

[quote]
If it wasnt aimed at me, great. You can say what you wish as well, doesnt mean people have to accept it or that it is true. As for the last bit, Im tempted but I wont touch that with a ten foot pole right now.
[/quote]

I am a chauvinist, it shows up every now and then when i am unfairly attacked.

[quote]
Men are just as guilty. When you choose to put your ideas voluntarily on a public forum, you're asking for it. No, Im not your ex.
[/quote]

Now this is hardly pleasant. Just because I post my views I am asking for a verbal lashing tantamount to spousal abuse?

[quote]
Considered. And you might not want to hear what I have to say.
[/quote]

Yay! Political discussion. As I am a gentleman, you can define the concept and subject for discussion.

[quote]
Tell me how this relates to the topic and you get a cookie!
[/quote]

It doesn't. Do I still get the cookie?

[quote]
Its not about self-importance. Whats with desi men and thinking all the women in the world are running after them? I posted a thread and assumed you were responding to me. If you werent, no harm done. Forget about it. Goodness!
[/quote]

Trust me no woman runs after me. As the man I expect to do the chasing, and promptly get slapped for my troubles. You do realise i am teasing/joking right?

I await your comments on the political discussion.