Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
How? Why?
If asking for help from living person is not shirk, then howcome asking help from Ali is shirk.
Because Ali is not in this world living with us.
Secondly, the "ya" in "ya Ali madad" is *harf annida, *and a harf annida is only used for a second party person, who is present in front of the speaker. And when a person yells out Ya So and So...it is pretty much given that the person can hear and respond too.
This is blatant shirk, because it negated Tawheed al Asmaa wa Sifaat. The attribute of being present everywhere is for Allah alone (by His Knowledge and not physically) and being able to hear everyone and respond to everyone's calls is something that suits Allah alone.
And anyone who makes partners in Allah's Names and Attributes has commited shirk fil Asmaa wa Sifaat.
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
This is Surah Fatiha…The first Surah of the Quran, the opening of a faithful’s declaration…
**
1:1** In the name of GOD, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. **
1:2** Praise be to GOD, Lord of the universe. **
1:3** Most Gracious, Most Merciful. **
1:4** Master of the Day of Judgment. **
1:5** You alone we worship; You alone we ask for help. 1:6Guide us in the right path; 1:7 **the path of those whom You blessed; not of those who have deserved wrath, nor of the strayers.
**
Notice the underlined words…They are in the same sentence as ‘worship’…
The word Madad means help…By Asking Ali for help many resort to shirk and deny the very core of this first Surah…
And anyways, as a Sunni I believe no matter how powerful Ali might have been, he is no comparison to my Everliving, Everlasting and Omnipotent Lord Allah…
So when I want help, I want it from the very best…From the Creator, not the creation…
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
Because Ali is not in this world living with us..
Thanks for redefining the word "living". Quran says he is living. Now you came up with your own theory, not-with-us. So asking help from someone who is not living with you ... is shirk.
Secondly, the "ya" in "ya Ali madad" is *harf annida, *and a harf annida is only used for a second party person, who is present in front of the speaker. And when a person yells out Ya So and So...it is pretty much given that the person can hear and respond too.
And anyone who makes partners in Allah's Names and Attributes has commited shirk fil Asmaa wa Sifaat.
You are thinking too much about the word Ya. So shirk is now attributed to the ability of the addressee to respond, with complete disregard of the caller's intentions (neeyat).
You guys keep changing your theories and definitions to reach your own conclusions
I stick to 2 points
1. Asking help from a living person is harmless, and we all do it in our day to day life
2. Ali is alive, he lives and eats just like us (like any shaheed). Its just that we can't see it.
Obviously everybody believes in point 1. If you do not believe in point 2, or doubt what Quran says or add your own spins to it, I say great. Its better to think and disagree, than not to think and agree.
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
^ Where is your daleel that you can ask help from a shaheed and pray to him.
Shirk IS based on the ability of the addressee, because this is a matter of Tawheed al Asmaa wa Sifat, something you seem to be totally ignorant about.
Allah is the only one able to listen to all humans and respond to them no matter where they are, and no one else shares this quality with him.
[QUOTE]
**And if my slaves ask concerning Me, then indeen iam Close
**Al Baqarah, V: 186
And He is with you wherever you may be and Allah is All-Seeing of what you do
Al Hadid, V: 4
And in an agreed upon Hadith: "Oh people! Have mercy upon yourselves, for verily yo are not calling upon One that is deaf or that is absent. Nay, you are calling One that is All Hearing, All Seeing. Indeed, the one whom you are calling is closer to you than the neck of his riding animal."
[/QUOTE]
And to attribute these qualities to someone else is Shirk al Akbar.
Hence the burden of proof is upon you now....So show us the proof that the Shuhadah are able to listen to your calls and that they are also able to respond, if you speak the truth!
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
Hence the burden of proof is upon you now....So show us the proof that the Shuhadah are able to listen to your calls and that they are also able to respond, if you speak the truth!
You cannot prove that about God either. Its purely a matter of faith.
I never claimed that Shuhadah can listen to our calls or respond to them. How would I know.
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
Is it ok to ask help from GOOGLE? or that is shirk too
What instead of typing I say "YA Google"?
Google is neither living nor shaheed, but we get help from it.
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
You cannot prove that about God either.
I just did it. The quranic verses were the proof (assuming you do believe the Quran to be the word of God)
I never claimed that Shuhadah can listen to our calls or respond to them. How would I know.
You are believing in calling out to some Shaheed, when you have no clue weather they can answer to your calls or respond back.
Whats the difference between you and some a hindu. You're calling upon those who are not present, left this world, cant hear/respond...while a pagan calls out to stone figure, and both of you claim to be monotheists... Subhanallah!
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
I stick to 2 points
1. Asking help from a living person is harmless, and we all do it in our day to day life
Asking for what? A glass of water? Food? To get paan from the corner or to grab the remote before coming to sit on the couch? Is this what is asked of Shaheed?
What help are you talking about, let's first clear that up...
[quote]
2. Ali is alive, he lives and eats just like us (like any shaheed). Its just that we can't see it.
[/quote]
I have never heard such a thing...Eat like us meaning do they enjoy murgh cholay, chicken tikka and chapli kababs?
Can you pinpoint a location where it is written as such?
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
Does anyone remember the dua which is recited after azan on PTV and GEO? In the translation they say ....app (s.a.w) ko wasila aur fazilat banaya. Is it right or wrong?
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
Robert
If calling anyone other than Allah as a "prayer", like Ya Ali Madad or "Ya ghous-e-azam Madad" etc is Okay, then there is no mushrik in this world.
WHy then we muslims accuse non-muslims of shirk. Almost all relgions that i know of beleive in One God. The hindus who worship idols also do not take them as God but as "Wasila". Similarly many African religions who do ancestor worship, also take them as "wasila".
We may then accuse them of asking from help from lesser people but cannot say that they commit shirk.
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
May be Robert missed this post
Iconoclast-
I read this note before. Since you mentioned I am read it again. Things needs to put in a context. A begger begging you for a piece of bread, does not believe that you share the devine powers with God. Mushrik is the one, who believes that God alone is not the ultimate devine power. People asking from help from dead or alive, usually know that the ultimate source is the devine power we call God. Statements like Sun provides us light and energy, is not shirk, as long as you believe who created Sun. Calling Ya Ali Madad, is not shirk because God created Ali (everyone believes it). There may be certain things, you find inapproriate for your taste, which is perfectly fine. But accusing someone of shirk, is a big charge. Putting things in context is crucial. Calling Ya Ali Madad, is not the same as praying a statue made up of stone and believing its the living God.
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
Asking for what? A glass of water? Food? To get paan from the corner or to grab the remote before coming to sit on the couch? Is this what is asked of Shaheed?
What help are you talking about, let's first clear that up...
Are you suggesting that its not the addressee's living status, but its the nature of the object we ask for (paan, water, success in life etc), defines if it is shirk or not. Thats a 3rd definition of shirk on this thread. Congratulations.
for help many resort to shirk and deny the very core of this first Surah…