Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
^People of Makkah also did not beleive that Idols have ultimate power. They beleived that they bring them closer to God.
As i said before all religions beleive that God is ultimate power. And idols, ancestors etc have been gievn powers by God. So in that case they shud not been said to do shirk.
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
^People of Makkah also did not beleive that Idols have ultimate power. They beleived that they bring them closer to God.
As i said before all religions beleive that God is ultimate power. And idols, ancestors etc have been gievn powers by God. So in that case they shud not been said to do shirk.
That is incorrect. At that time few arabs believed in God of Abraham (the Christian/Jewish God). Others who worshipped idols, believed God of Abraham does not hold all powers, and there are numerous gods. Idols bring them close of those other gods. There is a structure made of stone, in the same area, which brings you closer to the God of Abraham. So worshipping it, is not shirk. They call it Kaaba.
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
Iconoclast-
I read this note before. Since you mentioned I am read it again. Things needs to put in a context. A begger begging you for a piece of bread, does not believe that you share the devine powers with God. Mushrik is the one, who believes that God alone is not the ultimate devine power. People asking from help from dead or alive, usually know that the ultimate source is the devine power we call God. Statements like Sun provides us light and energy, is not shirk, as long as you believe who created Sun. Calling Ya Ali Madad, is not shirk because God created Ali (everyone believes it). There may be certain things, you find inapproriate for your taste, which is perfectly fine. But accusing someone of shirk, is a big charge. Putting things in context is crucial. Calling Ya Ali Madad, is not the same as praying a statue made up of stone and believing its the living God.
Peace Robert
There are different kinds and different levels of shirk.
The most overt form of shirk is in the idolatory that one puts consciously into a form that one believes is God. i.e. in the case of the pagan idols of Makkah, they used to believe that the gods were the idols.
A lesser form but shirk nonetheless is when people explain that they prostrate to those statues but believe God only assumes the form within those statues.
A lesser form still but shirk nonetheless is when people associate some of the Attributes of God in to others.
In Surah Fatihah we state to Allah (SWT) that "It is You (alone) we worship and it is You (alone) we ask for help, Guide us to the Straight Path"
From here it is clear that Allah (SWT) deserves to be "asked for help", as asking for help is seen as a type of worship.
When we ask others to help, we must do so with the mind that Allah (SWT) give them tawfiq; they being the vessel through which Allah (SWT) helps us. However, we need to only do this with people who can help.
It is therefore wrong to ask Shuhadah or anyone who has died for help as they cannot help us in the state they are in. We should realise that. For the shuhadah they are alive in Heaven in the form of green birds, for the dead they are in Burzakh. For Allah (SWT) He is Manifest and for all people we ask they should be able to respond to us and deal with us in our normal day to day dealings for us to ask from them. Even then we don't congradulate them for helping we say and believe all Power is from Allah (SWT).
We can ask for wasilah but only whilst addressing Allah (SWT) directly.
There is a world of difference between these statements:
O' Sheikh do du'a for my health .... as opposed to ... O' Sheikh make me healthy.
The first case is asking someone to ask Allah (SWT) for your help
The second case is asking someone to help
By asking Allah (SWT) they are not really helping, rather they are putting more effort in to asking Allah (SWT) for helping.
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
O' Sheikh do du'a for my health .... as opposed to ... O' Sheikh make me healthy.
What if Sheikh is a doctor? Is this statement still shirk?
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
That is incorrect. At that time few arabs believed in God of Abraham (the Christian/Jewish God). Others who worshipped idols, believed God of Abraham does not hold all powers, and there are numerous gods. Idols bring them close of those other gods. There is a structure made of stone, in the same area, which brings you closer to the God of Abraham. So worshipping it, is not shirk. They call it Kaaba.
They may not have beleived in God of Abraham, but they did beleive in 1 God that was supreme.
Even those hwo beleive in multiple gods like greeks also beleive in one supreme being that has created all the lesser gods and gave them all the power.
Concept of one God has been universal in all religions.
One question again: The hindus that worship Ram, Kaali Maata, Hanumaan etc. also bleive in one God that is Bhagwaan, so do they commit shirk or not?
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
What if Sheikh is a doctor? Is this statement still shirk?
We don't ask Doctors to make us healthy or do we?
O Doctor! Make me healthy. LOlzz
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims
people seems be revolving around question like 'whether using computer/ is a bidat or not '? which suggest a dreath of common shared understanding of subject matter. I have shared my understanding of the basics of this topic which are relevent so i quote them instead of getting redundant by saying same thing again in different words.
quoting posts from page 1:
If anyone is interested to refute or argue my understanding on this topic, i would gladly respond.
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
We don't ask Doctors to make us healthy or do we?
O Doctor! Make me healthy. LOlzz
yes, but saying so would be "shirk" u think?
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
yes, but saying so would be "shirk" u think?
Of course it is, if you think its not shirk then you need to study about Tauheed, again.
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
Of course it is, if you think its not shirk then you need to study about Tauheed, again.
You dont have to worry about me. Now you make sense. Thanks. All I wanted is someone to be consistent about things. Had you said that Ya Doc make me healthy is okay, I would ve been all over you again.
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
About Myself, I think Ya Ali Madad is perfectly fine, so is Ya Doc, make me healthy.
So we just agreed to disagree. But no harm done.
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
AOA
1) Allaha (swt) it the ultimate power and solver
2) "Waseelaa" has different meanings among different scholars even in same school of thought, therfore some permits and some do not
3) Whether permitted or not, those who ask from "other" than Allaha (swt) has clear impleid beleif that Allaha (swt) is the only solver but that "other" is reference/chain/help to Allaha (swt)
4) If theif enters my house to steal and then they run away coz of dog in my house, I would normally say " Dog saved my house otherwise theif would have taken all" . It is normally considered correct and every one praise/adore dog for that, but who saved my house Allaha (swt) or Dog, so please do not just judge by what u hear and with out clear understandings.
5) " Hadeesay Qudsee" ---- Jo mera( Allah ), may uskaa phir meree marzee uss kee marzee.............. ponder upon it and u will see Allah ( swt) is giving out his will or freedom
Thanks
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims
^How did the good saints help you out can you speak to them and is vice versa possible
AOA,
I understand that u dont find anything wrong with using Hazrat Ali (r.a) as a waseela, but what drives u to think it is the way to go? what makes u think that u cannot direct ask Allah SWT 4 your needs?
Wassalam
The answer to that question is very simple. If I give you a steel utensil and pray to Allah to convert it into gold would it turn ... the answer is NO. If I go to a wali will it turn ... YES .. for them its childs play. My family and my uncles have all eye witnessed this miracle.
As for those who say its shirk I will give an example. Take for instance Obama the President of America. Lets assume he has immense power and can get your work done easily. If a normal citizen like me goes to Obama to get some work done he might not do the work but lets say the servant who works in his house is a good friend of mine or his dishwasher. Now I ask the dishwasher and the dishwasher introduces me to Obama and requests him to the job for his dear friend then Obama has a greater probablity of doing his work.
Moral of the story:: dishwasher still remains a servant and does not equal to Obama. So we are not equalling the pious servant or the Wali of Allah with Allah as they are also dependant on Allah themselves however using them as a via is helpful.....
Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]
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