Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]

Society Religion & Philosophy
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**{ **Important: Please read post # 19 for instruction regarding format of this thread. thankyou. }

I have also seen shia saying bismillahhh! in the same situation. :slight_smile:

BTW, the thing which is plain shirk to you is acceptable by esteemed deobandi / hanafi ulema like Ashraf Ali Thanvi, Maulana Haji Imdadallah Muhajr Makki, Maulana Husayn Ahmad Madani as all three scholars have deemed it permissible to seek help via Imam Ali (as) due to his position as a Hadi (Guide), to the point that all three have recorded the following supplication in their books:

O remove ignorance from us, and enlighten us with realities and knowledge, through Ali, your true Guide of Knowledge.

another thing, if you really think that Ali (as) is dead then consider reading ayah *2:154 in quran with its tafseer. *

happy ramazan! :slight_smile:

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Re: Amir Liaquat Hussain.

mainstream shias don't say ya ali madad. correct me if i am wrong. i have heard ismailis say it.

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Re: Amir Liaquat Hussain.

^ lots of shias say ya ali madad, not just ismailis. Ismailies (and a segment of shias in Pakistan called mawlaais) do take it a step further, they say ya ali madad for everything, including substituting it for Assalam Alaikum. will not go into whether or not thats shirk.

Amir Liaquat Hussain is no shia. And his brother is also not really a, say, typical shia in the sense that he has some pretty non-mainstream concepts and has a small following. most shias in pakistan have quite a bit of resentment for the guy, suffice to say hes been regarded in some theories as an Agent.

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

I have separated the post and made a new topic to discuss a very important topic, which requires meaningfull investigation and discussion. We should all share our insight and try to understand if their is some issue and practices need our attention and revision.

In my observation and opinion, Shirk (association of dieties,personalities with Allah in his absolute attributes) is widely present among sunni and shia muslims. Just because i am myself a sunni, that does not mean that i can turn a blind eye on these beliefs and practices and endorse them becasue i share the same basic ideology and set of fundamental beliefs.

I will disscuss these belief, ideas wrong practices later but first another error which needs our attention.

X-communist said in other thread
quote--
Ali is dead just like Mohammad adn neither can be called upon for help in this world. .
--unquote

Just before going to discussion of seeking help, We all need to understand the concept of death in islam.

The english word dead is not suitable and it does not describe the phenomina of death of a person as per islamic point of view. The most aptly descriptive word for death is an urdu word "in-te-qaal" When someone dies we say 'Falaan sahab ka Inteqaal ho ga gaya hai" inteqaal means transfer

And it describes the phenomena of death in islam perfectly. Islamically, A person is a combination of body and soul. Death is for body, soul just transfer from this body to another world, and then it lives in this world (Barzakh) for unknown time period and then on the day of judgment itwill be joined with the same body as told in quran.

So calling a person dead, does not describes the state of person completely.

Better we should say

the person is no more with us.
The person has departed.

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

Zero1... Ashraf Ali Thanvi, Maulana Haji Imdadallah Muhajr Makki, Maulana Husayn Ahmad Madani as all three scholars have deemed it permissible to seek help** via** Imam Ali (as) due to his position as a Hadi (Guide),

plz ..ponder over word VIA...which means .Waseela...permissible by many great scholars...

and differintiate between waseela..and direct taking help from Ali(ra) considering him ALL in ALL....which is shirk....

regards
wasalam...

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

to me anything that takes u away from a beleive on ALLAH SWT is shirk.
-such as color> ppl say wear this wear that bla bla kinda thing. its bad, or its ma licky color.
-horoscopes
-stupid reasoning ppl give on someonez death. (i have seen ppl blaming gals, even her parents blame her n call her evil eye)
-too many births of daughters.
-kali billi
-cloud formation in some Sahaba RA's ism (name)
-maza'ar (tomb)
-formation of some s-called grave, anywhere little ground is uplifted, which later get famous as of peer fakeer.
-taweez, ganday
-smoking, drinking, n drugz to seek ecstasy rather namaz, or Quran.
-n many other.

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

wouldn;t 'through Ali' imply that Hazrat Ali (ra) is being used as a vaseela? Ya Ali Madad is pretty direct in my opinion where you are asking Hazrat Ali (ra) to help you out instead of Allah.

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

^ i agree.

question is, why to muslims feel that that need to ask someone besides Allah 4 thier needs, also are waseela that important... kya Allah Taala hamara zarooratoon ko nahi jaan ta (na'oozobillah)? is it somthing that the Sahaba did after the Prophet SAW's inteqaal ?

in surah Baqarah Allah SWT tells us that he replies to us when we invoke to Him, so why invoke to others?

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

According to shia doctrine, Ali (a.s.) is solver of problems (mushkil khusha (persian)); from this concept the dua of Nanday Ali comes.
However, this does not mean that Ali is a higher figure than Allah (swt) (nauzibllah); yet it is because of Allah's command through Muhammad (sas) that imam Ali (as) is held in such high esteem.

Ya Ali Madat!!

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

I apologize in advance for the question here, isn't this exactly what Hindus do too? Consider their idols (different names of idols for different needs) to be a source/waseela for God's blessings?

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

To my knowledge, hindus in general believe in different gods for different needs. In stark contrast, shia doctrine fully believes in the oneness of Allah (swt); but it is because of Allah's command that Imam/mawla Ali (a.s.) and his progeny are so highly revered.

Suffice it to say, comparing hindooism to Shia Islam is offensive.

Child molestation
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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

You are right, this is what I understand about Hinduism too, but then they have concept of The One God too, which probably means all other Gods reporting to The One God :D .... may be like we have so many names of Allah (each representing different attributes) they might have developed a God out of every name.

[quote]
Suffice it to say, comparing hindooism to Shia Islam is offensive.
[/quote]

I understand that, thats why I apologized in advance.

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

agrree

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

I feel its important that people realize that Shia islam DOES NOT endorse shirk. No one shia will say Ali = Allah. They will however say Ali is FROM Allah. Two completely different things. The former is shirk because Allah CANNOT have human-like features.
Mawla Ali and his progeny are infalliable by the grace of Allah. They are the correct interpreters of Islam. What it means to be a muslim. Rasool ullah (sas) has said I am knowledge Ali is the gate. That says it all.

So bottom line: Shia Islam DOES NOT endorse shirk.

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

.

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

Yup Ya Rasool, Ya Ali, Ya Hussain, Ya Fatima, all are used as wasila not literally asking them and considering them Allah (nauz billah).

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

THAT is the key word...that should be understood...

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

Lets see if zero01 clarifies it.

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

Captain1, Anil khan, Pinks, lusi And all Sunni and Shia the members of religion forum !

I would humbly request you folks to bring forward and share your own understanding of the concept of shirk and its presence in muslim society now a days. There are hundreds if not thousands of verses of holy quran which talk about shirk in detail and quotes dozen of example so that persons with varrying level of intelligence and understanding can grasp the concept. I am sure all of you must have read some (if not all) of these verses . If you have not come across any of them Then i would sincerely advise you to get hold of your copy of quran and read it.

Let us for the time being not go into the argument of 'they do this or they believe that '. First we should present our personal point of view regarding our own understand of shirk in general. I will quote zobia as she has explained her perspective well :k:

This will be a moderated thread this point forward and your response(s) may be removed if found deviating from the format. Thankyou for co-operation.

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

^agreed... the concept of shirk doesn't need to be a murky one... there are indeed numerous verses in the Quran that speak against the direct/indirect indulgence in such a sin... Aaj kal ke zamane main, shirk is not the type where we bow infront of an idol... unfortunately our ummah is guilty of varied versions of shirk.

Now there r varying classes of shirk; major would be associateing partners to God to invoking to others beside Him, to minor ones (e.g. lengthening prayers to show off to ppl... here one is trying to impress others instead of Allah SWT)

I beleive there is no space for shirk, nor the small or the major... ONLY Allah is worthy of worship, absolute trust & absolute Mercy.

As far as using naik ppl as a waseela, well my approach is this; after Muhammad SAW's death, to date, I have not come across any account of ppl like Hazrat Abu Bakr/ Umar, etc constantly using the Prophet SAW as a waseela... so if such great muslims did not use the greatest man as a waseela, then why should we? When I need something, I ask Allah SWT for it DIRECTLY, he is As-Sami, Al-Bari, so I dont see the need to go through someone else.

Allah SWT says in Surah Baqarah to Muhammad SAW to inform us that when we invoke to Him, He hears us, and that He replies to our invocations. If Allah SWT is directly telling us that there is no need for a medium between Him and us, then why try otherwise?

If you invoke (or call upon) them, they hear not your call; and if (in case) they were to hear, they could not grant it (your request) to you. And on the Day of Resurrection, they will disown your worshipping them. And none can inform you (O Muhammad) like Him Who is the All-Knower (of everything)”
[Faatir 35:13-14 – interpretation of the meaning]

“And who is more astray than one who calls on (invokes) besides Allaah, such as will not answer him till the Day of Resurrection, and who are (even) unaware of their calls (invocations) to them?
And when mankind are gathered (on the Day of Resurrection), they (false deities) will become their enemies and will deny their worshipping”

[al-Ahqaaf 46:6]

May Allah SWT protect me, my family and all Muslims from shirk, Amin.

Wassalam