Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims [merged]

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

They hear there devotees calling upon them. The Friends of Allah do not die, they merely leave the physical world. They are in eternal contact with Allah and in the companionship of our Master the Beloved of Allah.

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

But i thought they have a barrier or barzakh between this life and life after death. And only Allaah knows about that.
Because clearly states that dead cannot hear, and thats why the concept of barzakh. Let me explain during the time of Prophet when some used to greet the Prophet, he used to return the greetings but not anymore this is called barzakh.
For further information read, Ayat ul kursi, its interesting these people can help us and Allaah cant help us, i thought Allaah is All seer and All hearer and Allaah doesnt wont anybody and everyone needs Allaah.
22.78
And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!

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Re: Amir Liaquat Hussain.

"they r in touch with Allah" and hence help u out.... so u concede that if Allah didn't allow it, you would get no help. That being established, why NOT ask Allah 4 ur needs directly? try it. Where do u get the concept that ur duas r more accepted if u get some saint to ask for 'em?

I mentioned this earlier, but here it is again... it clearly leaves no space for the concept youv'e stated above... Allah is TELLING u He replies to your invocations... which means we shud take His word for it.

"And when my slaves ask you (o Muhammah) concerning Me, then (answer them), I am indeed mear (to then by My Knowledge). I WILL respond to the invocations of the supplicant when he calls on Me (without any mediator or intercessor). So let them obey Me only and believe in Me, so that they may be led aright (Surah Baqarah 2:186)

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

seeking help from any saint is shirk....

but many great scholars have given ermssoin of waseela....

that this saint has done many good deeds ..so ..O Allah ..showers your blessings on us ..as you showered on this man..etc etc...

and Allah knows best....

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

Exactly now tell me what did Mushrikana Makkaah did, didnt they know there was God they knew there was one God and the acknowledged this fact and its mentioned in the Quran. And the word help/waseela go in tandem for the normal public this is just and eyewash (i know where i have come from so dont try to use these terms waseela/help differently they have the same meaning.

You say many great scholars have given permission of waseels, will these great scholars, saints help you during the day of Judgement and if they help how sure are you, but yes there is one man who will help you and that is Prophet as mentioned in Surah 5:35.

Now you say saints have done good deed, now let me ask you during the days of idol worship Mushrikana makkah had idols of Ibrahim, Ishmael and they also knew Allaah is the one to ask help but Ibrahim and Ishamael peace be upon them were used as waseels/mediator are these great saints even equivalent to these Prophets the answer is no.

Infact Ibrahim was one of the greatest messengers and Ishmael also a Prophet, Allaah even disliked this and said this was shirk now how come Allaah commands this as shirk but asking great saints isnt shirk.

Now for further arguement you will provide me with this verse

002.154
SHAKIR: And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, (they are) alive, but you do not perceive

REad the lat sentence be we do not perceive it, any person might be good/bad but Allaah alone knows his intention and its only with the mercy of Allaah you can go to paradise or hell so who is gone to heaven/hell only Allaah knows the best and obviously few companions stated by the Prophet.

But then you wont be satisfied you will come up with this verse and say asking from the shaheed/saints is allowed coz they are not dead so this verse will come into picture

003.169 *
**SHAKIR:* And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;

Again the same verse they are alive now how these scholars will deceive us and seal of the whole stuff is with this verse to say waseela is allowed,
005.035 *
**YUSUFALI:* O ye who believe! Do your duty to Allah, seek the means of approach unto Him, and strive with might and main in his cause: that ye may prosper.

NOw seeks means of approach is waseela in Arabic gone khallas a person like me who is against this grave worship is stuck in this loop.

But this verse accordingly was only for the Prophet and thats why we have the after adhan dua i.e. Athi Mohammadin waseela wal fadeela, but this was only during the time of Judgement day as Allaah will give him permission this is mentioned in Ayat ul Kursi and only Allaah knows the best.

Regarding your hadith of Prophet commanding the Umar regarding to pray for him during the time of Umra is true and Umar after listening to this was dazed, so you are intending Prophet took waseela through Umar (nauzbillaah) to have his wish granted.

Amazing first the scholars who feed such stuff shold be stacked in one corner and smashed. Secondly why have you only stuck to this hadith during the reign of Umar, prophest uncles Abdullaah ibn abbas (i have forgottne the name correct if i am wrong), prayed because it was a drought situation as commanded by Umar.

Anyways more on it later i end of by asking if any of these great scholars protect you on the day of Judgement and if they can let me know coz I am missing on something great in my life then.

Why should i pray 5 times a day, fast, ask for forgiveness i will take a short cut. Well divine_light have you visited yanabi.com, i have done to learn the grave mistake they are in.

Last person to answer this post wins!!!!
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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

I am a daughter of a WAHABI father married to a Shiite so no firqa can say that I'm defending anybody or opposed to anyone :)

Have you ever gone to your mother or grand-mother and have asked her to make dua for you since ur exmas are coming up?

You wouldn't consider that shirk? Would u?

That does not mean that God will listen to your mom more than he would listen to you. This is the simplest example of wasila that I can give, merely asking for help from somebody doesn't mean shirk.

Shirk is in ur intention, if ur intention is wasila, it is NOT shirk, but if u used the same sentence and ur intention is different ...it is shirk!!!

It's ur belief that makes the dfferent, merely sayng soething doesn't constitute shirk.

Amaal ka daromadar niyaaton par hai!

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

Well said but i hope the muslims follow your words.

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

I go to my dadi ma's grave and would ask her to talk to allah mian or in my pyaers i would say dadi ma please help me, ask allah mian to go easy on me : )
It doesn't mean that i think she's alive and her rooh is in the next room listening to me!!
It merely means that I believe in a life after death and I think that God would let my dadima to listen to me coz I loved her so much and I'm sure she's looking at me fro God knows where and knows when I pray for her or when I seek out her support!!
It truly ur belief and nothing else!

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

'm glad u agree.....but I don't want any muslim to follow my word!!
I want them to follow their heart, if they belive it to be the truth then it is!!
Koi muslim bhi Allah kay ilawa kisi say madad nahin mang sakta....yeh mera belief hai : )

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

Who is bigger in status? Ali, Mohammad, Isa, Mosa, Ibrahim or.............. ermm.........Allah?

Isnt it common sense to just ask the One whom all the others (Ali, Mohd, Isa, Mosa, Ibrahim) asked?

Explain this scenario to a child in easier terms (who is not influenced from all these arguments) and the child's pick will be pretty obvious...

Time to wake up?
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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

^ maybe, maybe not. but if this is all the logic you have then you're merely proving illogicality, not shirk.

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

My brothers and sisters, you have to understand the logic. It is only Allah on whom we can call upon. He's providing us with food, water, house, family and all the other blessings. It's not our beloved Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), not Hazarat Ali, nor Hazrat Essa, nor any other Prophet or Sahaba, its Allah who's providing us with everything in this world...so shouldn't we ask Allah directly? Allah has clearly said that pray and ask Me!

Above someone mentioned about asking through your deceased grandmother, since she's now closer to God, but you just can't call upon a dead person to ask for you....how do you know whether Allah will send him/her to Heaven or Hell ( and I don't certainly mean our Prophets, Sahabas (Tuba-Aztaghfar, Naozubillah) or Shah jee's dadi ma, I pray she goes to heaven...Ameen) but a simple example of a simple human being like your dad, or uncle...you just can't make them a medium to reach out to God, or anyone for whom heaven is certain.

Allah is most Beneficial and Most Merciful....and this statement clearly explains the means of dua, that if you ask from true heart and good intention, then Allah will definitely listen to you, and if not then you will get the reward in the hereafter. Making dua directly to Allah is clearly interlinked with Oneness of Allah.

Hope I haven't offended anyone and that people understand my point.

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

^^

Fanatics.

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

If asking Allah directly is Fanaticism according to you..then I don't know what Islam you are following.

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

thanks..you expalin it in excellent way...this is what all concept of waseela..but unfortunately..saudi scholars put bidaat and shirk fatwas on that....

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

SlaveOF AL:LAh..Mushrikeenai makkah had made idols as partners in allah's affirs..saints are not..

The Random Thread
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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

personally ..i have never been to any saint grave ...but i either dont consider it wrong...its all about your intentions..as shah1979 rightly mentiod...:)

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

Divine

Are ou trying to say that all what Prophet saw wanted to tell Mushrikeen-e-Makkah was to take him and his friends as Wasila instead of statues?

Dua is highest act of Ibadat, so much so that Allah has taught us himself of many DUAS in Quran, yet not even a single one of these is thru a Wasila.

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

I am sure there are a lot of christian monks who would argue the same way .....who are we to judge than anyway ?
btw I hope you oppose the shah who was overthrown in 1979 as he was an infidel

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Re: Presence of Shirk among sunni and shia muslims

saudis promote themselves as the so-called "puritins" they are the biggest idol worshippers they have imposed a tyrannical kingship on the land of the Prophet[saw] ....but it doesnt mean we justify every bidat just because saudis atleast superficially oppose it ......saudis ask everything thru the wasila of US ....and they think its not shirk ...these people have seperated religion from state a terrible innovation in islam

The Random Thread