Re: Post marriage independence, privacy or abandoning your parents?
Gina, alvena, PSq and chipkali - thank you for daring to differ from the code-of-the-women, and understanding the real message.
Faisal - thank you for the most sensible post in the thread.
Note to self - some sensible reasons stemming from different families having different structure, background and bonding, plus a whole lot of insecurities as expected!
Regarding the bit in bold isn’t it funny I see this happen all the time, the same sons who say their Mothers need so much ‘looking after’ usually do no housework, contribute nothing or very little to the bills and spend the bulk of their time out with their friends and like someone else mentioned (and nobody has been able to answer yet) how come it isn’t called abandonment when a man wants to go and live abroad, leaving his parents, or chooses to go to uni a couple of hundred miles away (when there’s usually one within driving distance), seems it’s only ‘abandoning’ family when there’s a woman involved 
I feel really really sorry for hijabi girls who are in this situation, would be hard enough for those of us who don’t wear it having to ‘adjust’, am sure it’s 100x harder for them (esp in the Summer!). Money is an excuse I’ve heard from a lot of younger men (strangely a lot of them go on to buy themselves a nice car despite apparently not being ‘able’ to afford a place to live), if the average man can spend a grand on a plasma tv, a laptop etc, couple of hundred on a new mobile phone every few months of course he can afford at the very least to rent a place.
You never hear non-desi men moan about having to provide a home for a new wife, infact in nearly every other culture (yes inc Muslim ones) a man isn’t considered a real man if he can’t/won’t provide his wife with a home. It’s already been mentioned that the sahaba didn’t move their wives into their parents home, this stuff comes from Hindu culture. We’re actually recommended not to live with inlaws (there is tons of info on this on Sunnipath, Islam Q&A etc) unless of course they are elderly or ill.
**and ofcourse most of the people who disagree with the joint sysetm are women. they are the one who have to make adjustments. **In families where there are no sons, even the nicest of guys doesnt move in with in laws.
Exactly. Why would most men disagree with staying at home with parents? They get all the advantages of having a wife (intimacy, being looked after etc.) but without all the added responsibility..
Re: Post marriage independence, privacy or abandoning your parents?
^ Why are you women inclined on merging other issues with the matter currently being discussed in the thread? If a man leaves the parents for the sake of moving abroad and all that jazz, yes it is abandonment, at least to me it is. But if you look at the title of the thread, it relates to abandonment after getting married.
And as for the golden words in bold - sweethearts, my sole objective was not to push the entire blame on women, unlike most of you perceived it to be. If a man is irresponsible, he is irresponsible, it doesn't make it right for him just because he is a man. My point, which I failed to get across to the most of you, was that when your parents are old they need you, not just for the 'needs' needs, they need company, they need care. Nobody wants to be left alone. Again, there are exceptions and like I 'admitted' above, dynamics and bonding structure of a family also matters. My ideas are based on how I was raised and trust me my parents did everything to make sure I was always comfortable. And I consider it a debt which I can never repay but I can and will try.
And as for comparing ourselves with sahaba, if only we were as cautious about rights as them and as pious and responsible as them. I would recommend a self assessment before playing the religion card. Plus, refer to rights of the parents in islam, might be an eye opener. Again, I know many feel differently due to a different bonding structure of the family, and some even hate their parents. So, like I said, some good sensible reasons, and a bunch of insecurities!
No matter how much people say that moving-out doesn't mean abandoning, it's not the same either. You're not there when they need you, no family dinners/breakfasts or bonding time.. you're not spending quality time with them..it turns into casual conversations over the phone.
Would you be able to forgive yourself if Inauzubillah anything happened to your parents in the middle of the night.. old people are more prone to accidents too. I have seen numerous old people go quiet (very educated people) because they're lonely..
Re: Post marriage independence, privacy or abandoning your parents?
I read somewhere ......
"In Pakistani society, people don't live their own lives. The first half of their life is for their parents, and the second half for their children."
^ Why are you women inclined on merging other issues with the matter currently being discussed in the thread? If a man leaves the parents for the sake of moving abroad and all that jazz, yes it is abandonment, at least to me it is. But if you look at the title of the thread, it relates to abandonment after getting married.
And as for the golden words in bold - sweethearts, my sole objective was not to push the entire blame on women, unlike most of you perceived it to be. If a man is irresponsible, he is irresponsible, it doesn't make it right for him just because he is a man. My point, which I failed to get across to the most of you, was that when your parents are old they need you, not just for the 'needs' needs, they need company, they need care. Nobody wants to be left alone. Again, there are exceptions and like I 'admitted' above, dynamics and bonding structure of a family also matters. My ideas are based on how I was raised and trust me my parents did everything to make sure I was always comfortable. And I consider it a debt which I can never repay but I can and will try.
And as for comparing ourselves with sahaba, if only we were as cautious about rights as them and as pious and responsible as them. I would recommend a self assessment before playing the religion card. Plus, refer to rights of the parents in islam, might be an eye opener. Again, I know many feel differently due to a different bonding structure of the family, and some even hate their parents. So, like I said, some good sensible reasons, and a bunch of insecurities!
Cos it implies hypocrisy, the two issues are linked into the same argument imo..
Re: Post marriage independence, privacy or abandoning your parents?
^ If only you would stop being a woman and read the '**If a man leaves the parents for the sake of moving abroad and all that jazz, yes it is abandonment, at least to me it is.' **part again, out of your bolded text. Back to the topic, shall we?
Re: Post marriage independence, privacy or abandoning your parents?
the thing is if a man wants to keep his wife with his parents he has to be wise and fair enough to stop conflicts from arising. He has to be strong. Also he should tell both parents and wife separately and strictly that both are important to him and he would not tolerate any disrespect for the other party from either one. coz if he is weak or leans more towards any party the other party gets hurt.
As much as you love your parents and want to stay with them unless you have the guts to stop conflicts from arising they will arise. If problems arise and things get bitter between your parents and wife it might get harder to move out and moving out at that point will hurt the parents even more.
now Janwar when you say if your inlaws need help you would let your wife take care for them and provide them support but it will just mean by visiting.right? you wouldn't move in with them coz u r living with ur parents. So if its ok for wife to take care of her parents while still living away why a son can't do that?
moving out is the best option not only for independence and privacy sake but for sake of sanity and peace. and ofcourse all of us love to think that our parents r the best and would harm no one esp their own dils.
i can see all girls who say they would love to live with their in laws are unmarried. their ideas weigh less until moving in with their husband's family.
No matter how much people say that moving-out doesn't mean abandoning, it's not the same either. You're not there when they need you, no family dinners/breakfasts or bonding time.. you're not spending quality time with them..it turns into casual conversations over the phone.
Would you be able to forgive yourself if Inauzubillah anything happened to your parents in the middle of the night.. old people are more prone to accidents too. I have seen numerous old people go quiet (very educated people) because they're lonely..
It doesn't have to be like that tho if sons and daughters (as well as parents) make an effort.
My brother's fiance told him she'd like to live with my parents for a while after marriage but they said no lol. He's buying a home 10mins away so am sure they will be round every couple of days to see what's going on. If they got v.ill they'd prob spend time with him for a few months then a few months with me kinda like a rotation system lol. Don't think it's fair the traditional way with usually one DIL having to do all the work..
^ If only you would stop being a woman and read the '**If a man leaves the parents for the sake of moving abroad and all that jazz, yes it is abandonment, at least to me it is.' **part again, out of your bolded text. Back to the topic, shall we?
Fine. I am done with that now anyway. Just wanted to point out that (brilliant) point that been made by someone else :)
the thing is if a man wants to keep his wife with his parents he has to be wise and fair enough to stop conflicts from arising. He has to be strong. Also he should tell both parents and wife separately and strictly that both are important to him and he would not tolerate any disrespect for the other party from either one. coz if he is weak or leans more towards any party the other party gets hurt. As much as you love your parents and want to stay with them unless you have the guts to stop conflicts from arising they will arise. If problems arise and things get bitter between your parents and wife it might get harder to move out and moving out at that point will hurt the parents even more.
now Janwar when you say if your inlaws need help you would let your wife take care for them and provide them support but it will just mean by visiting.right? you wouldn't move in with them coz u r living with ur parents. So if its ok for wife to take care of her parents while still living away why a son can't do that?
moving out is the best option not only for independence and privacy sake but for sake of sanity and peace. and ofcourse all of us love to think that our parents r the best and would harm no one esp their own dils.
*i can see all girls who say they would love to live with their in laws are unmarried. their ideas weigh less until moving in with their husband's family. *
With all due respect Mabrook, I beg to differ with that last part. Only because you have no idea why these "unmarried" girls say what they do. How do you know they havent been through it already? Its an assumption on your part to say that and dismiss someone else's opinion just to help your own.
Re: Post marriage independence, privacy or abandoning your parents?
^i don't have to help my opinion coz mine was formed after personal experience and that of many others. n its none of my concern if someone lives with inlaws or not. its a personal choice. but unless u hav lived with them( atleast for 5-6 months) u cannot judge how easy or hard it could be. i used to be unmarried once too and had high thoughts of families and living together but theories are always different from practicals. and situations can be different for different ppl but generally speaking living with in laws is way harder than living with ur own parents.
What is your take on this whole concept? I am expecting quite a few counter arguments.
that’s rather callous. stop judging women yaar. stop judging sons. stop judging other people. there cannot be clones of you jaanwari! i don't live with my inlaws and i am certainly not insecure or cold. nor have i abandoned them! you have no right to go round accusing women or sons of abandoning their parents just because they choose to live in separate homes.
this thread might have been started by you but stop with the authoritive only-my-views-are-right-here attitude! You aint even married! you cant expect others to think the way you do because the way you think is not the RIGHT way for everyone. we all have different finger prints…hence everyone is different! understand this!
when parents are older and unable to lookafter themselves, then yes we should look after them. but sometimes they want their independance too from their kids? give the parents their breathing space too yaar!
...ok...lets take the wife/ marriage out if it and twist things a little. Answer me this?
suppose parents send their son for 5 years to study Medicine abroad. While son is away, something happens to the Dad. Will the son be accused of abandoning his parents?
or suppose son's parents are in pakistan and he himself is living in saudi arabia, trying hard to earn money to send back home. Something happens to his Mum. Will the son be accused of abandoning his parents?
To me, leaving them and getting a place of your own where you can live happily everafter with your wife is like turning your back on your responsibilities.
This whole concept of moving out and getting a place of your own is cold and stems from insecurities of women and the whole inlaws-are-evil mentality.
i have read so many of your posts. you live in middle east, you travel a lot etc. okay tell me jaanwari, why are you living abroad then away from your mother?
your accusations of abandoning parents have been iniquitous.
Janwaar: I think you will just have to acceot that women have the right to live away from inlaws, that is a right given by GOD that you can not take away.
If it is your personal preference that you live with your parents, find a girl that has the same personal preference simple.
Don't judge the women who want to live seperatley, GOD would not have given that right if it was tantermount to abandonment. Allah knows best.
I find this whole abandonment thing pathetic, unless the parents are ill etc, moving away is not abandoning them. Some of these guys just need to 'Man Up' or not get married.
Re: Post marriage independence, privacy or abandoning your parents?
Jaanwar, it seems to me that you are seriously thinking about settling down and have to consider your elders also. Now I have just come up with a suggestion bcos it suddenly struck me that you are compatible with someone else here.
Don't dismiss it, consider it seriously. So someone mentioned that you live / travel around / work in the middle east? May I suggest you set up base in Dubai and get your mum to move there with you. Then marry Gina. See, no abandonment of parents, both close enough to take care of both your parents.
Gina, I admire your spirit and attitude towards parental care, mashallah.
My humble apologies if either of you are not single, or if I have embarrassed / offended either of you.
^ Lol :D
Janwar, just wondering what would you're options be should your wife's parents seek/need her company as much as your parents wants yours? on which bases would you decide....because i am sure, her parents would appreciate her company as much as yours.
secondly, i think its all fine and dandy that you you want to pay back youre parents what you owe them, just as long as you dont try and pay them back with your wife. Remember, she not indebted to them, so its not her who should pay.
thirdly, living with extended families is not really practical in the west, unless perhaps you live in a mansion with different living quarters. Normal everyday family issues can easily get blown out of proportion, and lead to unneccessary conflicts between spouse/inlaws because that relationship of an inlaw is never the same- remember blood is always thicker than water.
I think wanting to live seperately when you can, is not an insecurity by any means, infact it is natural that both couples would intially want thier own space, inorder to adjust to one another. Its hard enough adjusting to one person after marriage, let alone a whole tribe.
Then theres also the shari' mahram/namahram issue, hence why providing seperate accomodation for a spouse is a requirement in Islam.
So, if the husband refuses to move out when the means are there, and the parents are able, then i think that is more of a general reflection of insecurity on his part, rather than the wife's and the affliction is well known as 'mama's boy'!
I'm going to throw in my two cents here as a mother who hopes that at least my oldest two will be married and settled in the next 10 - 12 years (iA).
I am 37 years old, and will be pushing 50 when my son marries, insh'Allah. I will still have two younger children at home, but I hope they will be in college or heading off to college at that time. I will have dedicated the nearly 26 years to raising my children, and I will be ready for a vacation. I do not want a DIL to train, I do not want grandchildren to raise, and I do not want to spend the rest of my life feeling like a guest in my own home.
I would like to enjoy my time traveling, furthering my career, (I've turned down some exciting opportunities because we didn't want to/couldn't afford to move the entire family), and enjoying my hobbies. When I can no longer care for myself, I will reevaluate the situation.
LOL.
I don’t think you realise how funny this post is!! 