POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

This is extremely sad and one can’t enough condemn senseless killings, torching churches/buildings, and burning effigies.

I find it beyond my scope of comprehension how people could commit such acts and crimes. What is their motivation, whose feeding it, and how the heck do these mobs form in the first place? How could they even remotely entertain such ideas and act upon them?

The only thing they’ve done is disservice to Islam and everyone else. :nook:

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

Subhaan Allah, another topic where all the muslim, brothers & sisters, will comment against pope's. In reply all the non-believers will justify his response and say something against Islam. Then all the believers will try to justify the Islamic teachings. And then this infinite loop will continue forever and ever. This started 1400 years ago and will not end until the day of judgement.

One thing i don't understand is, why we, muslims, need to justify ourselves when we know WE'RE ON THE RIGHT PATH? Islam doesn't any help or any justification! Allah Subhaanhu Wa Ta'ala promised to protect it! In the case of dawah, we can consider the argument of explaining Islam to someone. But if the person is "duff & blind" then there's no need to explain him/her anything.

The other thing is that why are we so shocked and are saying that pope shouldn't have said this etc etc. ISN'T HE A KAFIR? What can we expect from a kafir, other than say things against Islam? It's so stupid to ask him to apologize or anything because he has the freedom to speak and so do muslims. The kafirs can say/do against muslims whatever they want and so do we. WE SHOULDN'T CARE ABOUT WHAT PEOPLE THINK ABOUT SAY etc!

answer to the questions of non-believers "Why do muslim hate non-believers or are taught to hate?". Let's you have a friend who you love so much and he's everything for you. But there's another person who mock your friend, slander him and tell people something from the reference of your friend which your friend never said. What would you do? or How would you feel? Would you like the person who does all those things to your beloved friend?

Similarly, Muslims CANNOT love/like the person who's enemy of Allah Subhaanhu Wa Ta'ala!

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

Could you clarify? What aspect is to be considered dawah and what exactly are you referring to when you're speaking of Muslims being on the right path. Also, what is it for which Muslims don't need to present justifications.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

Oh really So u think all these think tanks full of these so called intelligent people have no hidden agendas. Wake up and smell the coffee! I am really impressed with your naiveness and simplicity.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

The fact is that the majority of research shows that the more education a person has the less prejudices they have.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

so utd...how educated is the pope?

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

I do. There is a clear double standard. Whereas Western imperial ambitions, led by the UK and US, are couched in academic terms, and subject to rather bland protests at most...OBL and his ilk (although not commiting violence on exactly that scale) are branded Evil, and other very black/white terms.

The Pope is equally guilty, whereas he is willing to quote a view that declares the Prophet's war of survival as "evil", but has yet to echo the same kind of rhetoric among those on his side of the world.

No, the Western world is not unified by any means...but their stance is one of tacit approval in that their opposition is quite muted, or secretly supportive. Why blast a major trading partner...for the sake of poor Afghans or Iraqis?

The bottom line is, when violence is perpetrated in the name of Islam, it is considered somehow vile and evil...yet when it is done in the name of democracy, or freedom, or anything Western...it's simply a matter of debate over tea.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

Naa, Pope Double std :no:
I dont believe this and he said sorry for his remarks

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7576505/

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

I'm not a fan but they guy has apologized, he's stated that it was a quote and not his personal feeling, end of story. Now those who have committed crimes in response should be rounded up and delt with, they are the problem.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

^ completely agree utd.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

Could you clarify? What aspect is to be considered dawah

If someone is interested in learning more about Islam and even want to become Muslim then you can go and explain that person what Islam truely is. Or if you know someone would listen to you and would understand your views. It's pointless explaining someone who will only argue and try to create more arguments within the explaination. For example, countless threads that we have on this forum, pretty much on same topics.

*what exactly are you referring to when you're speaking of Muslims being on the right path
*

As muslims, we know that we follow the one and only ture religion so we're on the right path. If a muslim doesn't do good deeds then that's a different story.

**Also, what is it for which Muslims don't need to present justifications.

**The example is what pope, a worthless kafir, said about Islam and Prophet(SAW). I don't think there's any need for Muslim scholars, to come on tv/newspapers and say things like "Pope shouldn't have said this and he's wrong and then explain the biography of Prophet(SAW)".

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD


So instead just protest, moan, complain, insult and inflame the masses? How productive is that?

How are you any different calling the Pope "a worthless kafir" than someone refering to your religious figures as worthless heathen?

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

The extremists are bad enough… But one of the the things I find difficult and I think many so called moderates too is the stuff that comes out of Washington, and US policy. We wish the Government would listen to the moderate voice in countering Islamic radical insurgency. The War in Iraq has done so much to malign the US in the eyes of not only Muslims but the World in general. Everyday, we see Iraqis being killed by the hundreds, and people in America are content with the perceprion that somehow they are safer… What sort of message is the world getting… America is digging its own hole, and I for one beg it to stop… I mean, if you really want to help the moderates win over the radicals, then then all this gun totting texas bravado has to go… Listen to the moderates on this one.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

^
You make a strong point, military operations alone with no policy changes are not going to work and the relationship between the U.S. (the west in general) and Muslim nations, or rather the Muslim street, needs to be revamped. Unfortunately the U.S. does not have the best administration in office to correctly tackle that and the Muslim street is increasingly being taken over by the voice of radicals and like the ball in a game of pong the tension is accelerating and things like questionable communication (ie pope) is being blown out of proportion and used by those who want to spread conflict.

Insecurity in people causes people to latch onto groups who project that they are the protectors. Insecurity can blind rational decision making and set up smokescreens that the person would otherwise see through. This trait is not a Muslim trait nor is it a Western trait, it is a human trait. Let's hope clearer heads on both sides prevail.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

I agree, we must not let radicals of any party dictate the agenda.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

The pope has said he was sorry for the statement he made. Should not that be enough for us Muslims? The non-Muslim world, including the Catholic part of it, is with us today, understanding our hurt. But that apparently is not enough for us. Our generals — from moulanas, muftis and even the OIC — still have not learned to recognize victory. We will fight on until the victory turns into defeat and all those who empathize with us get sick of our shrillness. We Muslims are not in a position to make anyone do anything. Why volunteer for more derision?

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

This whole thing is really embarassing.. I mean Muslims make themselves look so bad.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

‘A man with little sympathy for other faiths’

Pope Benedict is being portrayed as a naive, shy scholar who has accidentally antagonised two major world faiths in a matter of months. In fact he is a shrewd and ruthless operator, argues Madeleine Bunting - and he’s dangerous

Tuesday September 19, 2006
The Guardian

Only 18 months into his papacy and already Pope Benedict XVI has stirred up unprecedented controversy. As the explanations and apologies pour out of the Vatican - and thousands of Catholic churches around the world - the questions about what exactly this man intended by quoting a 14th-century Byzantine emperor’s insult of the Prophet Mohammed have only multiplied.
Some say this was a case of naivety, of a scholarly theologian stumbling into the glare of a global media storm, blinking with surprise at the outrage he had inadvertently triggered. The learned man’s thoughtful reasoning, say some, has been misconstrued and distorted by troublemakers, and the context ignored.

But such explanations are unconvincing. This is a man who has been at the heart of one of the world’s multinational institutions for a very long time. He has been privy to how pontifical messages get distorted and magnified by a global media. Shy he may be, but no one has ever before accused this pope of being a remote theologian sitting in an ivory tower. On the contrary, he is a determined, shrewd operator whose track record indicates a man who is not remotely afraid of controversy. He has long been famous for his bruising, ruthless condemnation of those he disagrees with. Senior Catholic theologians such as the German Hans Kung are well familiar with the sharpness of his judgments.

But in the 18 months since Benedict was elected, the wary critics who have always feared this man were lulled into believing that office might have softened his abrasive edges. His encyclical on love won widespread acclaim and the pronouncement on homosexuality being incompatible with the priesthood (and its inference that homosexuals were to blame for the child sex abuse problems in the church) were explained away as an inheritance from Pope John Paul II’s reign.

But while the Pope has tried to build a more appealing public image, what has become increasingly clear is that this is a man with little sympathy or imagination for other religious faiths. Famously, the then Cardinal Ratzinger once referred to Buddhism as a form of masturbation for the mind - a remark still repeated among deeply offended Buddhists more than a decade after he said it. Even his apology at the weekend managed to bring Jews into the row.

In fact, Pope Benedict XVI’s short papacy has marked a significant departure from the previous pope’s stance on interreligious dialogue. John Paul II made some dramatic gestures to rally world religious leaders, the most famous being a gathering in Assisi of every world faith, even African animists, to pray for world peace. He felt keenly the terrible history of Catholic-Jewish relations, and having fought with the Polish resistance to save Jews in the second world war, John Paul II made unprecedented efforts to begin to heal centuries of hostility and indifference on the part of the Catholic church to Europe’s Jews. John Paul II also addressed himself to the ancient enmity between Muslims and Catholics; he apologised for the Crusades and was the first Pope to visit a mosque during a visit to Syria in 2001.

In contrast, Pope Benedict has managed to antagonise two major world faiths within a few months. The current anger of Muslims is comparable to the anger and disappointment felt by Jews after his visit to Auschwitz in May. He gave a long address at the site of the former concentration camp and failed to mention anti-semitism, and offered no apology - whether on behalf of his own country, Germany, or on behalf of the Catholic Church. He acknowledged he was a “son of the German people” … “but not guilty on that account”; he then launched into a highly controversial claim that a “ring of criminals” were responsible for nazism and that the German people were as much their victims as anyone else. This is an argument that has long been discredited in Germany as utterly inadequate in explaining how millions supported the Nazis. Given his own involvement in the Hitler Youth movement as a boy, and his refusal to make a clean breast of the Vatican’s acquiescence in the horrors of Nazism by opening its archives to historians, this was a shabby moment in Catholic history. Not for this pope those dramatic, epoch-defining gestures that made the last Pope such a significant global figure.

Even worse, in his Auschwitz address, he managed to argue in a long theological exposition that the real victims of the Holocaust were God and Christianity. As one commentator put it, he managed to claim that Jews were the “themselves bit players - bystanders at their own extermination. The true victim was a metaphysical one.” This theological treatise bears the same characteristics as last week’s Regensburg lecture; put at its most charitable, they are too clever by half. More plainly speaking, they indicate a deep arrogance rooted in a blinkered Catholic triumphalism which is utterly out of place in the 21st century.

But if his visit to Auschwitz disappointed many and failed to resolve outstanding resentments about the murky role of German Catholicism, this latest incident seems even worse. Quoting Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologos, he said: “Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.” It was a gratuitous reawakening of the most entrenched and self-serving of western prejudices - that Muslims have a unique proclivity to violence, a claim that has no basis in history or in current world events (a fact that still eludes too many westerners). Even more bewildering is the fact that his choice of quotation from Manuel II Paleologos, the 14th-century Byzantine emperor, was so insulting of the Prophet. Even the most cursory knowledge of dialogue with Islam teaches - and as a Vatican Cardinal, Pope Benedict XVI would have learned this long ago - that reverence for the Prophet is a non-negotiable. What unites all Muslims is a passionate devotion and commitment to protecting the honour of Muhammad. Given the scale of the offence, the carefully worded apology, actually, gives little ground; he recognises that Muslims have been offended and that he was only quoting, but there is no regret at using such an inappropriate comment or the deep historic resonances it stirs up.

By an uncanny coincidence the legendary Italian journalist Oriana Fallaci died last week. No one connected the two events, but the Pope had already run into controversy in Italy by inviting the rabid Islamophobe to a private audience just months ago. This is the journalist who published a bestseller in 2001 which amounted to a diatribe of invective against Islam. This is the woman who was only too happy to fling out comments such as “Muslims breed like rats” and “the increasing presence of Muslims in Italy and Europe is directly proportional to our loss of freedom.” At the time of her papal audience, Fallaci’s ranting against Islam had landed her in court and there was outrage at the Pope’s insensitive invitation. The Pope refused to backtrack and insisted the meeting was purely “pastoral”.

Put last week’s lecture in Bavaria and the Fallaci audience alongside his vocal opposition to Turkish membership of the EU, and the picture isn’t pretty. On one of the biggest and most volatile issues of our day - the perceived clash between the west and the Muslim world - the Pope seems to have abdicated his papal role of arbitrator, and taken up the arms in a rerun of a medieval fantasy.

An elderly Catholic nun has already been killed in Somalia, perhaps in retaliation for the Pope’s remarks; churches have been attacked in the West Bank. How is this papal stupidity going to play out in countries such as Nigeria, where the tensions between Catholics and Muslims frequently flare into riots and death? Or other countries such as Pakistan, where tiny Catholic communities are already beleaguered? Or the Muslim minorities in Catholic countries such as the Philippines - how comfortable do they feel this week?

Two lines of thought emerge from this mess. The first is that the Pope’s personal authority has been irrevocably damaged; how now could he ever present himself as a figure of global moral authority and a peacemaker after this? At the weekend, a message was read out from Cardinal Murphy O’Connor at all masses in Catholic churches in England; he spoke of the regret at any offence caused and urged good relations between Catholics and Muslims. For a church that prides itself on taking centuries to respond, this was unprecedented crisis management. It cannot but damage the pope’s authority with the faithful that such emergency measures were necessary, and it compromises not just this pope but the papal office itself. (This is a job, after all, that is supposed to be divinely guided and at all times beyond reproach: a claim that looks a bit threadbare after the past few days.)

The second is a more disturbing possibility: namely, that the Catholic church could be failing - yet again - to deal with the challenge of modernity. In the 19th and 20th centuries, it struggled to adapt to an increasingly educated and questioning faithful; now, in the 21st century, it is in danger of failing the great challenge of how we forge new ways of accommodating difference in a crowded, mobile world. The Catholic church has to make a dramatic break with its triumphalist, bigoted past if it is to contribute in any constructive way to chart this new course. John Paul II made some dramatic steps in this direction; but the fear now is that Pope Benedict XVI has no intention of following suit, and that he has another direction altogether in mind.

More from Pope Benedict

On homosexuality
“Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder. Therefore special concern and pastoral attention should be directed toward those who have this condition, lest they be led to believe that the living-out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not.”

On Buddhism
“Auto-erotic spirituality.”

The ordination of women
On the excommunication of seven women who called themselves priests: “… the penalty imposed is not only just, but also necessary, in order to protect true doctrine, to safeguard the communion and unity of the church, and to guide consciences of the faithful.”

On same-sex marriage
“Call[s] into question the family, in its natural two-parent structure of mother and father, and make[s] homosexuality and heterosexuality virtually equivalent, in a new model of polymorphous sexuality.”

On rock music
“[A] vehicle of anti-religion”; “the complete antithesis of the Christian faith in the redemption.”

On cloning
“[A] more dangerous threat than weapons of mass destruction.”

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD


Really? When and where? Though I don't care much about what he says and sad how our Muslim world reacts to such words.