POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

Holier than me
Byline by M J Akbar: Holier than me

An intriguing part of the conversation between the Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus and "an educated Persian" now made world-famous by Pope Benedict XVI, is that the Persian seems to have no name. There is no mention of it in the speech made by the Holy Father during his "Apostolic Journey" to the University of Regensburg on 9/12.

The Persian must have been an intellectual of some importance if he was good enough to merit an audience with an "erudite" emperor. Does his name exist in the original text, since it was "presumably the Emperor himself who set down this dialogue, during the siege of Constantinople between 1394 and 1402"? Was the name mentioned in the version produced by Professor Theodore Khoury, which the Pope has read, and which he used in a speech on a critical aspect of a sensitive theme at a time of conflict, on the Islamic doctrine of "holy war"? I ask because names lend greater credibility to text. Was the name omitted because Muslims of the educated kind preferred anonymity? Not at all. Imam Ghazali and Ibn Khaldun were household names at the time of this dialogue.

There are other uncertainties in the Pope’s speech, which purports to be about "Faith, Reason and the University: Memories and Reflections" in which he quotes Manuel’s ignorant, but, given the history of the early and medieval Church’s continual diatribe against Islam and its Prophet, predictable view. This discussion on "holy war" appeared in the seventh conversation and was "rather marginal to the dialogue as a whole". It is interesting that Pope Benedict should select what was "rather marginal" for emphasis and ignore the apparently more substantive issues that were discussed. What is genuinely disconcerting is that the Holy Father should accept Manuel’s taunting, erroneous and provocative depiction of the Prophet’s message without any qualification. Pope Benedict is not at all disturbed by phrases as insulting as "evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached". This is utterly wrong, as even a cursory understanding of Islam would have made apparent. Are the Pope’s speechwriters equally biased or ignorant? The Pope treated Manuel’s observation and commentary as self-evident truth.

I have a further question: Why didn’t the Pope quote the Persian scholar’s answer to Manuel? It was a conversation, after all. Are we to believe that the Persian gave no answer, that he did not challenge such a rant? He could not have been much of a scholar in that case. If he did not reply he justifies his anonymity.

I am not erudite enough to have read the dialogue in the original Greek, or Professor Khoury’s edited version of it. I can only go by the Pope’s speech in Germany.

Some uncertainties can be explained by the distance of six centuries, as for instance the sentence that the conversation took place "perhaps in 1391 in the winter barracks near Ankara". The fact that we are reading Manuel’s record, rather than the Persian’s, also explains why it lays more stress on the emperor’s view of theology.

What is aggravating is that the Pope has been free with assumptions, and liberal with its first cousin, innuendo. The peaceful piety of Manuel becomes an indictment of Islam, which is held to be violent in preference and doctrine. The innuendo is cleverly expressed, indicating that some effort has been taken to be clever. The famous verse of the Quran, that "There is no compulsion in religion", is juxtaposed with the proposition that "According to the experts, this is one of the Suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat". The implication is that when he was not under threat, he drew out his sword and went on a rampage. This is the kind of propaganda that the Church used to put out with abandon in the early days, adding gratuitously comments about believers and "infidels". This is the line that those who have made it their business to hate Muslims, use till today. But the Vatican had stopped such vilification, and it is unfortunate that Pope Benedict has revived it.

If he had consulted a few experts who understood Islam, he might have been better educated on "holy war".

It is absolutely correct that no war verse was sent down to the Prophet during his Mecca phase. Despite the severest persecution, to the point where he almost lost his life, he never advocated violence. There are innumerable verses in the Quran extolling the merits of peace, and a peaceful solution to life’s problems — including a preference for peace over war. The Quran treats Christians and Jews as people of the Book, despite the fact that they did not accept the Prophet’s message. It praises Jesus as "Ruh-Allah", or one touched by the spirit of Allah (this is the best translation I can think of). Mary, mother of Jesus, is accepted as virgin, although the Quran is equally clear that Jesus is a man, and not the son of God.

The war verses are sent to the Prophet only when he has been in Medina for some time, and has become not only a leader of the community but also head of a multi-faith state. War, in other words, is permitted as an exercise in statecraft, and not for personal reasons, including persecution. Further, it is circumscribed with important conditions. Surely no one, including Pope Benedict, believes that a state cannot ever take recourse to war? Indeed, the history of the Vatican is filled with war. The Quran’s view of war, as an answer to injustice, certainly merits more understanding than censure.

Manuel’s view is better understood in the context of his times. He was monarch of a once-glorious but now dying empire. The Ottomans had been slicing off territory for centuries; the first Crusade had been called by Pope Urban II three centuries before to save the Byzantines from Muslim Turks. The heart of the empire, Constantinople, was now under serious threat. If Tamerlane (another Muslim) had not suddenly appeared from the east and decimated the Ottomans, Constantinople might have fallen during that siege which so depressed Manuel. It was hardly a moment when the Byzantines could have the most charitable view of an Islamic holy war. What is less understandable is why Pope Benedict should endorse a fallacy.

The present Pope is not a successor to the great and wise John Paul II. He is heir to predecessors like Pope Nicholas V who issued "The Bull Romanus Pontifex" in January 1455. This Holy Father sought "to bestow favours and special graces on Catholic kings and princes, who ... not only restrain the savage excesses of the Saracens (that is, Muslims) and of other infidels, enemies of the Christian name, but also for the defence and increase of the faith vanquish them..." He then praises King Alfonso for going to remote places "to bring into the bosom of his faith the perfidious enemies of him and of the life-giving Cross by which we have been redeemed, namely the Saracens and other infidels..."

And so on. This was the philosophy that created the Inquisition in which Muslims and Jews were killed and driven out of Catholic kingdoms in Spain and Portugal after the Christian reconquests. Do note that Muslims did not have any exclusive copyright over the use of the term "infidel".

I have no particular desire to introduce 16th century dialectic into contemporary attempts to bridge inter-faith misunderstanding, but it is pertinent that Nicholas V became Pope some sixty years after Manuel’s conversations with the unnamed Persian. Equally, there is no point in quoting from, say, Dante’s rather bilious descriptions of the Prophet and Hazrat Ali for that language belongs to a different world.

A suggestion to those who believe in an "international outcry". Hyper-reactions tend to suggest nervousness. Islam is not a weak doctrine; it is built on rock, not sand. Reason is a more effective weapon than anger.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

Can god be insulted or emberassed by remarks of any human being???
why the hell people should be worried what others are saying for their faith??

These extremists means that
Don't call Islam violent or I will behead you!

Isnt it funny..

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

People are not claiming that God was hurt because of someone's words, rather their BELEIF was insulted. Religious beleifs are held much more sacredly than perhaps anything else in the world at large.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

Stong beliefs should not be effected by petty insults.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

agreed, however petty insults should also not be left unchecked in all cases.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

And one does not counter statements deemed as inaccurate and insulting with the very actions that were made in the statement.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

To Chintu's point, the protestors are doing exactly what the Pope alluded to Islam as preaching - violence ! Wouldn't peaceful protests have been better ?

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

Isn't the reaction disproporationate to the insult ?

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

Doctorate in Theology :)

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD


Remember, the violence that resulted in result of statements is quite different from the violence indicated by Pope.... I sincerely hope you understand the difference.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD


No, protestors are doing protesting however wrong their method is. The violence indicated by Pope is different from the violence that resulted in his statement. The violence that Muslims are demonstrating is 'uncivilized' in nature and condemnable while Pope's comments were about use of weapons by Prophet to convert.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

It is hugely massively idiotically moronically disproportionate in an off the scale manner. a firm but polite approach would have been better, but again, some fringe power brokers rattled the cages of their simpleton mental slaves and in some cases paid workers to go out and do idiotic stuff. the reaction by the large majority was pretty restrained and civilized.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD


Are you denying that violence was used to spread Islam in the early years, especially throughout Arabia?

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD


Yes, there was no violence, there were wars with different groups, but nobody was put to sword for not believing in Prophet's days.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

No violence?!! You really are taking history revisionism to a new level. I'm not even going to debate other then to reccomend you read up on history, using both Islamic and secular sources.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

^ I have read history to my satisfaction and I don't wish to spend anymore time on that and I am glad that you don't want to debate on it either.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

The end does not justify the means. Such acts by a few just spoil the name of an entire religious group.

And people like you who support such acts, should not be cribbing on other threads about the 'hatred for Islam/Muslims' in the western world.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

Very predictable...Though didn't expect your ardent subscription to the Bernard Lewis' orientalist "What's wrong with Islam" frame of polemic thought process designed to villify a socio-religious set of ethos (islam) before it even gets a fair shake at the masses in the west and is seen as a threat to the established religiosity and capilalist subjugation, by turning political conflicts into class of civilization/religion pissing contest...Whereby, not only protecting and justifying the prepetual colonial and genocidal escapades and incursions of the holier then thou Judeo-Christian west, but also keeping at bay any possibility of revisiting these egregious policies...

Way to go...there is definitely something wrong with Islam and its inherently evil...

"Blowing up innocent civilians in buses"...presumably a reference towards the situation in Palestine...perhaps an assessement of how a population, which was for the most part secular in its outlook and hardly "rabid right winger", could resort to these tactics...A lot of the suicide bombers, e.g. the first female suicide bomber was not a typical hijaab wearing muslimah, a type that you despise so much, but somebody who would be best described as a liberated and westernized woman, but blow herself up to avenge her brother's brutal killing...Similarly, the 9/11 hijackers drank, did not have beards and frequented strip clubs (could have ran into you) and were as far removed from "right wingers" as you are from a mosque...

So the moral of the story is that these supposed extreme behaviors amongst the muslims are not a monopoly of any one "strain" of Islam...and for you to amplify and exploit them is only reinforcing what your gurus such as Dante, Bernard Lewis, Tom Friedman, Pat Robertson, Frank Graham, Ann Coulter, and now the Pope have asserted...unless off course that was your original intention....

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD


Me supporting such acts? Now you are confused or you are trying to score points, I have never supported acts of violence be it for protest or in name of 'freedom struggle', note this down somewhere in front of you with big words so you don't accuse me again falsely.

Re: POPE: FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAM CONTRADICTS MUHAMMAD

^ Maybe he has read your posts to his satisfaction and came up that conclusion since it is obviously possible that someone can come up with conclusions that are not factually based and still pass them off as if they were by saying he has read them to his satisfaction.


Hasn't there been a pissing contest since the advent of Islam 1400 years ago? I mean if the Crusades or Ottoman Emprie wars weren't a clash of civilization (based on religion), what was? And how long does Islam need to 'get a fair shake at the masses in the west'? And who is actively out there trying to get them that fair shake?