[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** Well currently, all knowledgable people reject Hadith writings or at least question their authenticity. It's only zealous 'mainstream muslims' who cling to this literature.**
[/quote]
What is the "criteria" of being in the category of "knowledgeable people"?
Who decides, judges between who is knowledgeable and who is a "zealous mainstream Muslim"?
Who is the authority here?
PA, so if Prophet Mohammad was alive today, would you follow QURAN or the Prophet?
And what is your opinion or opinion of your cult(Rashid KHilafa people-originated in 1980s.) on people(people after sahaba, the tabieens, taba-tabieens, etc.) who have been following SUNNAH and Quran for over 1200-1300 years?
AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM: "DO NOT MAKE MISCHIEF ON THE EARTH", THEY SAY "WE ARE ONLY PEACE-MAKERS" VERILY, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO MAKES MISCHIEF, BUT THEY PERCEIVE NOT"-[Qur'an-2:11-12]
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** mdbao, the argument is not if he believes in it.. it's the fact that you believe in it and he was giving you an example from a source you accept to be truthful. The saying is present in Hadith compilations.
Feel free to refute him using what he believes.
.**
[/quote]
Yes, but why does he believe in that one particular hadith and doesn't believe in the rest?
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
** Yes, but why does he believe in that one particular hadith and doesn't believe in the rest?
**
[/quote]
Please do me the courtesy of reading and trying to understand what's said.. I'd hate to repeat myself and waste everyone's time.
Here it is.. slowly this time..
If person A believes all hadiths are true then person B who doesn't is still entitled to point out contradictions between hadith without the need to believe in them.
In pointing out this contradiction person B is not embracing the contradiction as true, rather proving the initial point that these writings cannot be trusted because of their conflicting message.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** Please do me the courtesy of reading and trying to understand what's said.. I'd hate to repeat myself and waste everyone's time.
Here it is.. slowly this time..
If person A believes all hadiths are true then person B who doesn't is still entitled to point out contradictions between hadith without the need to believe in them.
In pointing out this contradiction person B is not embracing the contradiction as true, rather proving the initial point that these writings cannot be trusted because of their conflicting message.**
[/quote]
How is person B in a position to prove anything my mentioning something he himself doesn't believe in?
On WHAT grounds?
Who would believe in person B's claims or proof's?
u tell me wht proof u have of hadith not acceptable?
I’d follow what was revealed to the Prophet, i.e. Qur’an.
Rashad Khalifa may be your cult leader.. not mine 
false burden of proof..
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif
here’s a free lesson for you..
"The False Burden of Proof Fallacy simply assumes that because some favored statement can’t be proved false, it must be true. The difference between this and a genuine burden of proof argument is that, in the fallacy, there is no established body of knowledge and no justified logical principle that shifts the burden of proof over to the other side.
The purported argument rests merely on the fact that the favored claim hasn’t been absolutely disproved. Since almost no significant claim about the world can be absolutely disproved, this isn’t an argument.
Notice however that the person committing this fallacy doesn’t merely say “you haven’t proved me wrong, so I can still choose to stick to my previous belief” but goes further and asserts that “you haven’t proved me wrong, so you should change your mind and agree with me.”
Example:
You: I understand that I have no solid evidence that Martians didn’t come at night and suck my brains out but you cannot prove that Martians DIDN"T come and suck my brains out hence I don’t have a brain..
Me: I agree..
sorry.. kidding
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif
but you get the drift..
Dear PakistaniAbroad-
I'd like to steer you towards the original thread again if you'd like. Remember we were pursing the salat question in the other thread?
JazakAllah.
Ace,
We can ONLY start discussing it once Qur'an is upheld over fabrications.
I don't think ANYONE needs to PROVE Qur'an is superior and OVERRIDES Hadith by explaining how to pray from it.
The discussion would only make sense once you and other agree to reject the concocted stories and take Qur'an for their ONLY guiding light and THEN we can all sit and try to find out how Allah really meant for us to pray.
Until then.. it's a whole different discussion and an argument on the subject serves no purpose.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
**Ace,
We can ONLY start discussing it once Qur'an is upheld over fabrications.
I don't think ANYONE needs to PROVE Qur'an is superior and OVERRIDES Hadith by explaining how to pray from it.
The discussion would only make sense once you and other agree to reject the concocted stories and take Qur'an for their ONLY guiding light and THEN we can all sit and try to find out how Allah really meant for us to pray.
Until then.. it's a whole different discussion and an argument on the subject serves no purpose.**
[/quote]
Oh so, you are trying to tell us that we don't need to pray 5 times a day, and the prayer from the Quran is different than what we practice by following the Sunnah of the Prophet?
[quote]
Originally posted by Different:
** Oh so, you are trying to tell us that we don't need to pray 5 times a day, and the prayer from the Quran is different than what we practice by following the Sunnah of the Prophet?**
[/quote]
What I wrote is there for everone to read. Don't jump to conclusions of your choice.
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** What I wrote is there for everone to read. Don't jump to conclusions of your choice.**
[/quote]
[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** THEN we can all sit and try to find out how Allah really meant for us to pray.**
[/quote]
What else is left out PA? How clearer can it be?
You have said all I needed to know about your understanding and knowledge of The Quran and the Arabic language.
What is wrong with following the prophet? Quran was REVEALED ON THE PROPHET making him VERY IMPORTANT than quran. IF there was no Mohammad(pbuh) there wouldn’t be Quran today…simple!
Rashid khilafa… why would he be my leader when he preached a dogma which you carry on your shoulders today? Its obvious that he is your leader, its an other thing that you don’t want to admit that in public.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif
How about you answer my 2nd question…
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM: “DO NOT MAKE MISCHIEF ON THE EARTH”, THEY SAY “WE ARE ONLY PEACE-MAKERS” VERILY, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO MAKES MISCHIEF, BUT THEY PERCEIVE NOT"-[Qur’an-2:11-12]
You couldn’t be more wrong.. if there were no Qur’an, Prophet Muhammad would have no importance in the History of Islam or the world. What made him a Prophet were Allah’s revelations… otherwise he was just a human being like us.
was this your second question?? I think i answered that.. my views are my own.. and despite your obsession with Rashad Khalifa, I make up my own mind after studying on my own and unlike you I don’t belong to any cults..
… can see you writhing again in your pants that you’re unable to label me a part of any cult for a generalized bashing..
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif
[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited April 26, 2002).]
THE SUNNAH: THE SECOND FORM OF REVELATION
By Abu Abdir Rahmaan
All praise is due to Allah. May peace and blessings be upon his servant and messenger Muhammad (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam). As for what follows… Allah says in His Book:
This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed my favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. - Surah Al-Maidah: 3
Amongst the Believers there is no doubt about this way of life called Islam. It is without a doubt a complete way of life. The Creator of the heavens and the earth has not left anything out of this glorious Deen (way of life) of his. As the above verse states that this religion is perfect and complete. However, something new has come in fairly recent years from the Shaytan concerning the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam). It has been suggested by him to the hearts of some of the Muslims that the Qur’an, as Glorious as it is, is sufficient enough alone as guidance for Mankind. Meaning that the Sunnah, or way of the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) is something that can be left off, or abandoned. Without a doubt this is a growing disease that has no place in this wonderful way of life of ours.
In order to address this issue we must ask ourselves an important question. How do we worship Allah? Do we worship Him any way we want? Is there a correct Minhaj (Methodology) to worshipping Allah? Is it sufficient for us to say and do whatever it is that we feel is worship and then call it worship and it will be accepted as such? Let us consider what Allah says in the Qur’an:
O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and make not vain your deeds!
Let us examine, if we may, the above verse.
Firstly, Allah is addressing the Believers at this particular time.
Secondly, Allah states that he is to be obeyed. No sane person would doubt this, for it is the word of Allah. However for some unknown reason there appears to be some ambiguity about the statement that follows it.
Allah also states that the Messenger is to be obeyed as well. Now, from the outset I would say once again that no sane person would doubt that the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alihi wa sallam) is to be obeyed as well, however there appears to be a breach not in the acceptance of the verse but in understanding what is actually being ordered.
We have established that the Messenger (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) is to be followed, however we must ask ourselves a question once again. In his infinite wisdom, Allah knew when he revealed this verse that the Messenger (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) would soon die and that his Ummah (nation) would carry on after his death. Understanding this, we must ask the question of how do we understand this verse of the Qur’an after the death of Muhammad (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam). Is it no longer applicable? Of course it is! The Sunnah is the explanation of the Qur’an. It is the Qur’an in practice.
O Muslim reader, you must know that the Qur’an and the Sunnah do not contradict one another, rather they complement one another. When Allah says in this verse that the Messenger is to be obeyed, he is not only talking to that Honorable group of Muslims that accompanied the Prophet (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) during his lifetime. He is speaking to all of the Muslims that will come up until the Last Day. Similarly, no one is ready to conceive the notion that when Allah Says (which means in English) O ye who believe! that the only ones who believe are the Muslims who were with the Prophet (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) at that time and no one after them believed and no one else will ever believe! This would be grossly limiting the Qur’an in a way that was not understood by the Prophet (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) himself.
Beware Abdullah! The Shaytan is crafty! He may then try to sway your thinking from another angle. He may say that the Qur’an is simple to understand and that it needs no explanation. For it is true that Allah says:
We have indeed made the Qur’an easy to understand and remember - Surah Al-Qamar:32
However, although the Qur’an is easy to understand, it does need to be explained so that it is properly understood. Allah says in His Book:
And when We have recited it to you (O Muhammad through Jibreel Gabriel]) then follow its (The Qur’an’s) recital. Then it is for Us (Allah) to make it clear (to you) - Surah Al-Qiyamah:18,19
Surely if the Qur’an had to be made clear to the Messenger (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam), then how much more so to you and I? Is it logical at this point to assume that the Qur’an needs no explanation when Allah says:
…And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad) the Reminder, that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought -Surah An-Nahl:44
In this verse Allah is exhorting the Messenger (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) to not merely recite the Qur’an but to expalin it as well. Obviously , some explanation is required even to the most pious of men.
Truly the list of proofs can go on and on. However, I will list just a few Insha Allah:
…(And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. -Surah An-Nisaa:59
Once again, if we try to leave off the importance of the Sunnah, then how do we implement this verse of the Qur’an? Allah orders us to refer our differences to him. This means for us to seek our answers from the Qur’an. He also attaches The Messenger (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) to that particular order when He stated for us to refer to Him. If we leave off the Sunnah then this part of the verse has no meaning, and I seek refuge with Allah from that!
Whoever obeys the Messenger, has obeyed Allah-Surah An-Nisaa:80
How can we allow the Shaytan to “explain away” these clear proofs from the Book of Allah?
Say (O Muhammad): If you (really) love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins -Surah Ali-Imran: 31
How can the Muslims of today follow the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) and not refer to his Sunnah? How can we say that we love Allah and not try to follow the methodology of his Prophet? It doesn’t make sense O my Brothers in Islam! It is only the whispers of the Shaytan. Allah says:
So fight you against the friends of Shaytan (Satan):ever feeble indeed is the plot of Shaytan (Satan) -Surah An-Nisaa:76
Finally I would like to conclude with a Hadeeth (saying) from the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) that was collected by Imam Malik in his Muwatta. The Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) said: “I have left behind two matters. Those who hold fast to them will never go astray: The Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger”.
The reason that many of the Muslims are going astray today is because they are not only leaving off the Sunnah but they are leaving the Qur’an as well! Know for a certainty O Brother Muslim, that if you are not giving the Sunnah its rights, then you are not giving the Qur’an its rights. And I seek refuge with Allah from that! Don’t forget your Shahadah:
I bear witness that there is nothing worthy of worship as a God except Allah; and that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger.
Without the Sunnah then the second statement of your Shahadah also has no meaning. And I seek refuge with Allah from that! I glorify you O Allah, and I praise you. I bear witness that there is no God worthy of worship except you. I seek your forgiveness and repent to you. http://www.alharamain.org/english/
“was this your second question?? I think i answered that.. my views are my own.. and despite your obsession with Rashad Khalifa, I make up my own mind after studying on my own and unlike you I don’t belong to any cults..”
Yeah yeah, you told us already that you don’t belong to any cult… deny it. Anyway, You still didn’t answer my QUESTION, is it hard?
And, IF THERE WAS NO PROPHET, would there be ANY QURAN? Yes or no? If Allah didn’t want MOhammad to be the prophet, it could have been someone else at that time, but THEN Allah would have revealed Quran onto him, haina?
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM: “DO NOT MAKE MISCHIEF ON THE EARTH”, THEY SAY “WE ARE ONLY PEACE-MAKERS” VERILY, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO MAKES MISCHIEF, BUT THEY PERCEIVE NOT"-[Qur’an-2:11-12]
[quote]
Originally posted by Serial Guppy:
**Yeah yeah, you told us already that you don't belong to any cult... deny it.
[/quote]
Just the same as your denial of not belonging to the cult of OBL and his Wahabbi financiers.
[quote]
Anyway, You still didn't answer my QUESTION, is it hard?
[/quote]
What is it anyway??
This is my 2nd question PA:
And what is your opinion or opinion of your cult on people(people after sahaba: the tabieens, taba-tabieens and so on, etc.) who have been following QURAN AND SUNNAH for over 1250-1300 years?
"Just the same as your denial of not belonging to the cult of OBL and his Wahabbi financiers."
Well, how can you say that? I never denied to begin with...but I have always condemned people like OBL. You are promoting same kind of dogma which people of Rashid khilafa promote. Coming out like 1980s band saying sunnah is haram and only Quran is valid... on the other hand, I am not doing that with OBL's dogma and "wahabi" financiers "teachings," whatever they maybe. Do you see the BIG difference? I hope you do. Because I have always condemned extremism, whether thats found in OBL, Shias, sunnis, or any other group of people.
AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM: "DO NOT MAKE MISCHIEF ON THE EARTH", THEY SAY "WE ARE ONLY PEACE-MAKERS" VERILY, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO MAKES MISCHIEF, BUT THEY PERCEIVE NOT"-[Qur'an-2:11-12]
[quote]
Originally posted by Serial Guppy:
And what is your opinion or opinion of your cult on people(people after sahaba: the tabieens, taba-tabieens and so on, etc.) who have been following QURAN AND SUNNAH for over 1250-1300 years?
[/quote]
To which I have already responded that I do not endorse Rashad Khalifa or his 19 cult which makes my opinon irrelevant.
Now whenever you desire to ask me a question, ask my opinion directly; do not ask me to speak on behalf of people I never endorsed or have any intention of endorsing.