PakistaniAbroad . .

Asalamalikum Brother,
I have a few questions for you. I’ve seen that you’ve stressed in many threads that you have no belief in the sunnah of the Prophet(PBUH), and that you do not believe that the hadith of the Prophet(PBUH) should be followed upon. I was just a little confused and would be grateful if you could answer the following questions for me:

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  • Do you pray salat? What are your guidelines for saying salat and where are they derived from?
  • Do you not agree that one too many ‘translations’ can be derived from the same Quran? At such a time cant we use the hadith of the Prophet(PBUH) as a pointer?
  • Don’t you think that the person who has delivered the message would have a good understanding of it too? Would he not try to follow the message? Then isn’t he a good example to follow?

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  • If Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH)'s only purpose was to provide you with the message and nothing more- wouldn’t it have been more feasible had the Quran been delivered right into our hands so that the whole messenger thing could have been avoided? Or maybe you COULD have been the messenger? Dont you think something in Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) makes him different from you?

BTW- I would like it if you dont tell me that all Hadith are fabrications- because all sahih hadiths have authentic backgrounds and each and every quote is referenced right to its origin.

I would be glad if you actually answer all the questions- with some firm logic. I would also like it if no other members make lousy comments like someone someone is kafir etc. JazakAllah all

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(This question is open for any and every person who can answer these questions- PakistaniAbroad is the only person on board that I know of who rejects hadith, hence its directed at him)

lol, my elder a self declared mutazillite also sidelines ahadith..and scoffs at me by calleing me a alhe hadith LOL HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I call him an upstart heretic hehehehehehehe

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But mutazilite werent heretics though…

I use to subscribe to a list called ‘rope’, or something to that effect, its a group of Muslims who have rejected the hadith and rely solely on the Quran for guidance. Many of the contributors were very well versed in the Qur’an and could quite easily analyze verses. What was missing in their explanations was the historical context.

There’s a website with a bunch of info from people who proscribe to this belief system here:
http://www.toluislam.com

I don’t proscribe to this belief, but I do believe that hadith should be viewed with skepticism, especially weak hadith, and the Qur’an should be used as the primary source of guidance.

Achtung

[quote]
Originally posted by Ace:
*BTW- I would like it if you dont tell me that all Hadith are fabrications- because all sahih hadiths have authentic backgrounds and each and every quote is referenced right to its origin.
*

[/quote]

Ace:

Just my two cents on the above. Not ALL Sahih hadiths are authentic, though they are Sahih! :)

When people like Imam Bukhari (ra) and Imam Muslim (ra) tried to compile Ahadiths, they were confronted by this enormous volume of traditions. So as any literary work of compilation, they made themselves some rules and following those rules they included some Ahadiths as sahih and considered others not so trust worthy. They were not perfect in their rules, nor they themselves ever claim to be.

Actually it is said about Imam Bukhari (ra) that he would sometimes disagree with the Hadiths (or his conscious would consider if false) but still would include it in his compilations just because it would fall under the rules he deviced. Similarly, I believe it was Hazrat Imam Muslim (ra) who would say two nawafil after compiling every Hadiths, praying to Allah to forgive him for his mistakes.

So, the bottom line is, that there are Ahadiths that are authentic but not part of the Six Sahih Ahadiths. And then there are Ahadiths that are part of those books but go totally against the teachings of Quran, so cannot be authentic. Readers have to make their own judgment taking into consideration the whole Philosophy of the teachings of Islam.

Jazaka'llah ahmadjee- but I do believe that any hadith that contradicts the quran should not be considered. Also the original question was something else, it was in regards to people who completely reject hadith.

Achtung bro- Yes ofcource Quran IS the primary source for guidance- but like I've said before Quran is more like a rule book and Hadith its implementation.

Naoo'zobillah- I am not equating the Hadith to quran but like I've said above, hadith can be used as a pointer.

Ace,

I understood your question and agreed to it but just wanted to take this opportunity to clear up a common misunderstanding. :~)

I am very interested to know what PA has to say as I disagree with him on rejecting Ahadiths altogether.

[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited April 05, 2002).]

Brother can you plz give me some examples of the sahih hadiths that contradict the Quran, jazak 'Allah khair

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No answers? I doubt I've left you speechless!

One more question for you to tackle: Why is 'Muhammad'ur-Rasool-Ullah' Part of the kalima?

So to be a muslim one has to believe in the Muhammad-ur_rasool_ullah part as well- Could you expand on the importance of that?

Give him some time, he will come to this forum. I haven't seen him posting anywhere on this forum! :)

Yes. From the Qur’an.

Hadith as you refer to them.. No.

Yes and Yes and Yes.

The Prophet was just one of us. He was chosen for the task by Allah which he dutifully completed. btw it’s not MY assertion it’s what the Qur’an tells me.

A Book in the hand of beduins doesn’t speak for itself. It cannot lead in wars, or provide political leadership etc.

authentic?? has each and every reference been proven to be correct beyond doubt, or has any supporting documentary evidence?? The answer is a resounding NO.

Willing to expand on this one? Since Quran is complete it must give you exact instructions on how to offer Salat.

Why not?

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I knew your answers brother- I just wanted to know why you believe in a certain thing.

Cool. So then why so reluctant on following his Sunnah. Nobody is asking you to follow any which would contradict the Quran, but I DO think they can act as an example of how Islam should be implemented.

A book in the hand of beduins doesn’t speak for itself, but one in your hand CAN? There must be some hikmat in choosing a messenger.

Not each and every, but most have been referenced and very well documented. Ofcourse one can not provide any other evidence other than whats written. But as long as it helps us understand the Quran, whats wrong with it? The scholars who collected these hadith made a great effort to collect, combine and authenticate the references. Many hadith are referenced back to the original person.

It is referenced that Hazrat Muhammad said that “And anyone who writes something from me other than the Quran- then let him erase it”- so this means that the Prophet(PBUH)'s word shouldn’t be taken as being as important as the Quran. But at times when Hazrat Muhammad(PBUH) would explain a certain thing to one of the followers, and he would not be able to memorize it, Hazrat Muhammad(PBUH) WOULD allow them to write it on their hands or take a note of it.

I guess to sum it up- As long as hadith does not add to/take away/change anything that is in the Quran, it should be safe to follow it as ‘guidance’. Dont you think so?

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Brother Ace why does it matter what he believes?? Maybe it would be better if you read about them yourself

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as-Saffaareenee (rahima-hullaah) said:

((And we are not focusing on mentioning the virtues of the people of Hadeeth, for indeed their virtues are well known and their merits are many. So whoever belittles them, then he is despicable and lowly. And whoever hates them, then he is from the backward party of the Devil)).
Lawaa.ihul-Anwaar - Volume 2, Page 355

al-Hasan al-Basree (rahima-hullaah) mentions:

((Do not sit with the people of innovation and desires, nor argue with them, nor listen to them)).
Sunan ad-Daarimee (1/121)

Abu Haatim (rahima-hullaah) said:

((A sign of the people of innovation is their battling against the people of Narrations)).
Sharh Usool I’tiqaad Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’ah - al-Laalikaa’ee - Volume 1, Page 179

Sufyaan ath-Thowree (rahima-hullaah) mentions:

((Whoever listens to an innovator has left the protection of Allaah and is entrusted with the innovation)).
Abu Nu’aym in al-Hilyah (7/26) and Ibn Battah (no.444)

al-Fudayl bin 'Iyaad (rahima-hullaah) mentions:

((I met the best of people, all of them people of the Sunnah and they used to forbid from accompanying the people of innovation)).
al-Laalikaa’ee - Sharh Usool I’tiqaad Ahlis-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’ah (no.267)

al-Humaydee, the Shaykh of al-Bukhaaree said:

((By Allaah, that I war against those who reject the hadeeth of the Messenger (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) is more beloved to me than that I should war against the same number of Non-Muslims)).

al-Harawee in Dhamm al-Kalaam

Jazaka’llah Sister for sharing.
It matters to me what he believes in, because it might help me look harder at my own beliefs. He thinks he is just as right as you or I are- so why not try to work out the differences in beliefs rather than cast anyone else as being an innovator?

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Willing to expand on this one? Since Quran is complete it must give you exact instructions on how to offer Salat.
[/quote]

Hmmm why does it appear from your statement that you doubt if the Qur'an is complete.

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Why not?
[/quote]

[quote]
Cool. So then why so reluctant on following his Sunnah. Nobody is asking you to follow any which would contradict the Quran, but I DO think they can act as an example of how Islam should be implemented.
[/quote]

I cannot be sure that what we have in the shape of "Sayings of the Prophet" are actually what he said.

[quote]
A book in the hand of beduins doesn't speak for itself, but one in your hand CAN? There must be some hikmat in choosing a messenger.
[/quote]

Yes. It's God's system of having human beings deliver the message to their fellow beings and in the case of Prophet Muhammad, he was chosen to lead a nation. Just a scripture cannot achieve political and military victories.

[bani Isra'il 17:93] Or thou have a house of gold; or thou ascend up into heaven, and even then we will put no faith in thine ascension till thou bring down for us a book that we can read. Say (O Muhammad): My Lord be Glorified! Am I aught save a mortal messenger?

[bani Isra'il 17:94] And naught prevented mankind from believing when the guidance came unto them save that they said: Hath Allah sent a mortal as (His) messenger ?

[bani Isra'il 17:95] Say: If there were in the earth angels walking secure, We had sent down for them from heaven an angel as messenger

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Not each and every, but most have been referenced and very well documented.
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No they are not. Re study the criteria for a hadith to be 'Sahih'.

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Ofcourse one can not provide any other evidence other than whats written.
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What's written 200 years after the Prophet's death CANNOT be taken as correct since no documentary evidence is available to trace it back through each narrator.

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But as long as it helps us understand the Quran, whats wrong with it?
[/quote]

We do NOT need anything else to understand the Qur'an. The Qur'an explains itself. The problem the Ummah faces today is due to these fabrications which are allowed to override what's in the Qur'an.

Take one simple example. The punishment for adulterers. Qur'an specifies 100 lashes. These fabricated accounts ask for stoning to death. AND all ignorant Muslims follow these fabrications.. you tell me isn't it blasphemy and isn't this intruding into Allah's laws by establishinga parallel branch of religion that overrides the Qur'anic instructions?

[quote]
The scholars who collected these hadith made a great effort to collect, combine and authenticate the references. Many hadith are referenced back to the original person.
[/quote]

They only mention the names. There are NO documentary evidence or evidence that these people even existed!!

YOu seem like a fairly intelligent person Ace.. try this at home:

The most 'prolific' of the authors of "Sahah" is Al-Bukhari (194-256 A.H./810-870 C.E.)

He claims to have collected six hundred thousand 'aHadeeth, examined and sifted them, finally settling on about seventy six hundred which, when the repetitions are deleted, drop to about four thousand.

Now just sit back and think.. Bukhari is said to have been born blind. No reading or writing till 10 years of age. Then he slowly gained his vision and started learning to read and write.

From 810 to 870 gives him 60 years to live
He doesn't start till he's 10 years old and definitely didn't start writing the same day so let's assume he started his effort when he was educated and 20.

That gives him 40 years.

Now take away only 10 years for all the travel on foot/camel to Mecca, attending to slave trading, eating, conjugal responsibilities writing other books and all other travel to collect these Hadiths.

Leaves him 30 years.

If he worked 24 hours a day non stop for the entire period of 30 years.. did NOTHING else and collected 600,000 hadiths he spent a little over 40 minutes on each hadith establishing the authenticity, tracing all narrators back to their origin, being meticulous about it and then selecting or discarding it.

I personally am not willing to bet my religion on such 'research'.

[quote]
It is referenced that Hazrat Muhammad said that "And anyone who writes something from me other than the Quran- then let him erase it"- so this means that the Prophet(PBUH)'s word shouldn't be taken as being as important as the Quran.
[/quote]

Yes there is one hadith like that..

[quote]
But at times when Hazrat Muhammad(PBUH) would explain a certain thing to one of the followers, and he would not be able to memorize it, Hazrat Muhammad(PBUH) WOULD allow them to write it on their hands or take a note of it.
[/quote]

yes the Sunnis have found this hadith for their convenience.. but how come it's not in their Sahihs??

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I guess to sum it up- As long as hadith does not add to/take away/change anything that is in the Quran, it should be safe to follow it as 'guidance'. Dont you think so?
[/quote]

A LOT of history needs to be studied to realize when and how and why the compilation of hadith began, who was behind the MAJORITY of narrations and how easily a religion was derailed by introducing extra Qur'anic texts and allowing these man written texts to override a divine scripture.

[al-An`am 6:114] Shall I seek other than Allah for judge, when He it is Who hath revealed unto you (this) Scripture,fully explained? Those unto whom We gave the Scripture (aforetime) know that it is revealed from thy Lord in truth. So be not thou (O Muhammad) of the waverers.

Asalamualikum PakistaniAbroad-

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Hmmm why does it appear from your statement that you doubt if the Qur'an is complete.
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Quran in itself is complete- as far as the 'orders' go, but implementation is easier seeked through hadith. Hmm- so could you please explain the process of salat from the Qura'n? JazakAllah

Brother- I understand when you say how extra text was introduced to over-ride the quran. My understanding is only that hadith should be taken seriously only if they dont add/change/take away from the Quran. And if you look hard enough, you'll see that hadith expand on the 'daily' implementation of Islam. Quran is a complete codebook isn't it? But if Hadrat Muhammad(PBUH)'s sayings were written down as he went through 'life'- and according to you he WAS a prime example to follow- then I dont see why his example shouldn't be followed.

Conclusion really is: that you DO believe in the Prophet(PBUH)'s life being according to Islam- but you dont believe that his way of life has been successfully translated into the books. Correct?

Ok- the compilation did start approximately 200 years after the wisal of the Prophet(PBUH). First of all there are around 2100 Hadith(without repetitions(9800 with)) and its widely understood that Imam Bukhari spent around 16 years collecting the Hadith. Which comes down to around one hadith every 3 days? Seems enough for a person who had inherited a huge sum of money from his parents and devoted his time to the collection and authentication of Hadith. ALSO, the only ahadith he HAD to confirm the authenticity of, were those which did NOT go against the Qur'an- hence the number of 600,000 is inaccurate. So you see, if there were so many repetitions he really did not need to spend time verifying the extra hadith. Also, a large number of hadith came from the same person, hence verifying the authenticity of the narrator would then mean that the narrator himself had made an effort to authenticate the hadith. It was a chain of effort and ONLY the compilation started 200 years after, not the COLLECTION. Couple it with the fact that he supposedly had an amazing memory, the compilation doesn't look all that impossible.

Now- a huge number of the hadith which he had gathered were from his Ustaads- some of whom were Tabeyeen, some Taba-Tabiyeen and others his senior, who were the scholars at that time and the hadith he had collected were already considered sahih, he only had to compile the most authentic ones.

Or maybe you doubt that Imam Bukhari was a real Islamic scholar, maybe thats why you doubt his books?

Looking at the time he spent on the authentication of hadith, the people he collected the hadith from- It really shouldn't be hard to accept them as being authentic as long as they dont **add to* or contradict the Qur'an*.

And there is no doubt that the Quran is a complete set of codes for a muslim to follow, ahadith help us in the day to day life impelementation.

(BTW- Please be sure to explain the process of Salat)

JazaKallah Brother.

[This message has been edited by Ace (edited April 09, 2002).]

If you’d like

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Just a warning cause i got mixed in with this stuff, and if you don’t have your deen straight, it can get confusing. Insh’Allah you’ll find out whatever you are looking for, or not content with. May Allah(swt) help you and guide you to the right path. Ameen.

WITH ALL DUE RESPECT !!!!!
**
PakistaniAbroad

"The Devil's Advocate"**

THE TITLE SAYS IT ALL!!!

[This message has been edited by Mirza Ruswa (edited April 10, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Mirza Ruswa (edited April 10, 2002).]

But why?? why isn’t a Book enough??.. do you think Allah sent a cryptic message?? do you think He missed out on something?? do you think he failed to elaborate anything??

We can’t jump to that before first establishing the supremacy of Qur’an over heresay.

Be careful now. If you REALLY do believe then whichever Hadith talks about anything NOT in the Qur’an is trying to add to it.. if it broaches ANY subject already discussed in the Qur’an it’s trying to change it.. cuz Qur’an doesn’t need elaboration… and it’s mere presence is trying to take away from the Qur’an the distinction of being Allah’s Final Testament after which there is room for NO document, no addition or changes to the Religion.

NO.. Hadith is trying to get into your pants and making which hand you eat with, what you wash first, how you walk, how you breathe, sneeze and yawn a part of religion. The religion sent by God through Qur’an isn’t frivolous. It’s not something as low as trying to dictate bodily functions. It’s superior in message and keeps Religion at the level it should be.

They were NOT written down. And you know the answer cuz it wasn’t permitted. The sole reason for the absence of a compilation till Umer Bin AbdulAziz made the fatal mistake of lifting the ban 200 years later should be such a shocking proof..

Why didn’t the first four caliphs lift the ban? Didn’t they know more than the later rulers??

Why not the subsequent caliphs??

How did Muslims from 1 hijrah to 200 hijrah practice Islam in the absence of the Sahih books?? Were they misguided?? who explained the Qur’an to them?? All sahabas who were adult enough to have been witness to Islamic practices would have died within 60 years and they never travelled to the four corners of the Muslim Empire anyway so tell me why didn’t Usman send a copy of hadiths or an expert of Hadith together with the Copies of Qur’an he sent throughout the Muslim empire?

Correct. The only truth about his life that I accept is whatever is mentioned in the Qur’an about him.

No. I got the initial 600,000 figure from the preface of my copy of Sahih Bukhari. Now that u mention 16 years it comes down to about 15 minutes per hadith working NON STOP round the clock

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Ace my friend that’s the Shia school of thought rule.. The Sunni definiton of Sahih does not take CONTENT into account..

There are NO docmentary evidence. What if Abu Huraira concocted something?? Just because someone saw the Prophet in his life doesn’t make him an honest person, let alone a learned scholar.

What about the Ahad hadiths?? Qur’an time and again mentions witnesses to events, writing things down when doing minor contracts. Don’t you think we need documentary proof for such a major thing as religious beliefs?

ALL Hadith are word of mouth compilation. NO DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE exists for the content or the character of people who had died hundreds of years ago.

judging from what he compiled.. I seriously doubt if he was just respecting the narrators and including everything that had a venerated name to it, or actually being honest, analytical and critical of the content.

Qur’an is all you need. If your current practices do not reconcile with the Qur’an.. CHANGE YOUR CURRENT PRACTICES, don’t deem the Quran subject to interpretation or elaboration from texts which people have been following blindly for such a long time now that it’s become the norm and accepted Islam.

Just take a look at Christianity.. An organized religion led people into believing Jesus is God.. Now if you don’t find it in the Original Scriptures.. don’t blame the Book for it.. blame the corrupt practices and the politically organized religion and fabricators like Paul.

Draw the analogy to Islam yourself.. you seem like a very smart fellow and I’d hate for you to be caught up in this gibberish of concoctions by narrators who claim to know details of the Prophet’s wives periods and how he had sex with them.


So it shall be written, so it shall be done

Asalamualikum PakistaniAbroad-
I’d just like to clarify a few things once again because I feel you missed them in the original post, if you still miss the essence of why I strongly suggest that certain hadith should be considered- We’ll leave the discussion at that.

  • You make a thing about Quran leaving Islam unto the level a religion should be: For one- Islam is a deen and a complete code of life.
  • Why weren’t sahih books needed during the first 200 years?- The memories and the actual sahabas were there for guidance.
  • You again missed the point about there being 600,000 hadith. He HAD memorized 600,000 hadith, however only the authentic ones I.E the ones he got from his Ustaads were included. AND most of his ustaads(tabiyeen and taba-tabiyeen) had THEMSELVES memorized and authenticated dons of ahadith. So lets not get fixated on the ‘600,000’ number. Its a weak argument
  • I in no way suggested that Islam or ahadith should control my walking talking and eating.

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  • The Book is enough(oh dear)- Lets say someone gives you a cricket codebook today, would you be up and playing tommorow? Probably not, we learn from experience. For example- I might read a cricket codebook first and then read the biography of a famous player to get to know the game from someone who really knows it. You know what I’m talking about?
  • Ahadith do not take away the importance of Quran, they stress it.
  • Sahabis and their students learned from example and carried on the tradition WITH example, until the muslim ummah started getting diversified and an ‘exact’ reference as to what the Prophet(PBUH) did in a certain circumstance was required.
  • There is no documentary evidence because the sahabas and companions were considered the scholars of the time and no evidence was required to back it up.

Conclusion: I find Quran to be the supreme authority on Islam(Now please go ahead with the explanation of Salat- thank you), but I also find that certain daily matters are not dealt with in the Quran and at such a stage If i refer to any hadith which helps me with the understanding- I dont find anything foul with it. I make sure that the hadith in no way contradicts the Quran. I do NOT make those matters a part of Islam BUT I do follow the guidelines of the hadith believing that this is what the Prophet(PBUH) had said/done in such a circumstance.

Considering that Imam Bukhari was a renowned scholar and a huge number of the compiled hadith ARE actually referenced to the pious companions of the Prophet(PBUH)(and taking into account that a certain saying is referenced to more than one person, it really cannot be said that ‘someone someone’ changed the ahadith), I find it fair to follow ahadith which help along with dialy matters. I am in no way suggesting that Ahadith are more important than Quran, parallel, or even half as important. I guess if my point still isn’t clear, we’ll part our separate ways, and May Allah(SWT) guide us.

[This message has been edited by Ace (edited April 10, 2002).]