PakistaniAbroad . .

Society Religion & Philosophy
61

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** To which I have already responded that I do not endorse Rashad Khalifa or his 19 cult which makes my opinon irrelevant.

Now whenever you desire to ask me a question, ask my opinion directly; do not ask me to speak on behalf of people I never endorsed or have any intention of endorsing.**
[/quote]

If you READ it correctly, question asks BOTH OPINIONS, YOURS and/or your cult. Since you have denied any association with any cult, I would like YOUR OPINION, AS ALREADY STATED IN THE QUESTION.

Now answer without delaying/avoiding/ignoring, etc., it anymore!

AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM: "DO NOT MAKE MISCHIEF ON THE EARTH", THEY SAY "WE ARE ONLY PEACE-MAKERS" VERILY, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO MAKES MISCHIEF, BUT THEY PERCEIVE NOT"-[Qur'an-2:11-12]

62

Similarities in practices today are not because they reached us unadulterated or were always practiced as such, but because some people before us arrived at a consensus and formed like minded groups .. sects.

To this day contradictions and dissimilarities remain and are proof enough that there has always been a disagreement about what path to follow... since the days of the first generation sahabas and the people who succeded them.

Today more and more people are educated and open minded to see outside the box and criticize and question the authenticity of what has been shoved down their throat. It's no wonder they are finding serious errors, omissions and contradictions in various literature and in such circumstances it's always prudent to gravitate towards a valid document that passes close scrutiny and criticism even from non believers... i.e The Qur'an.

63

So, sahaba and people after sahaba: the tabiyeens, taba-tabiyeens were closed minded and didn't UNDERSTOOD quran as better as YOU do?

More questions, but I want to make it easy on you.

AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM: "DO NOT MAKE MISCHIEF ON THE EARTH", THEY SAY "WE ARE ONLY PEACE-MAKERS" VERILY, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO MAKES MISCHIEF, BUT THEY PERCEIVE NOT"-[Qur'an-2:11-12]

64

[quote]
Originally posted by Serial Guppy:
So, sahaba and people after sahaba: the tabiyeens, taba-tabiyeens were closed minded and didn't UNDERSTOOD quran as better as YOU do?
[/quote]

why do you insist on being so obtuse??

All I said was that contrary to popular belief, present day Islam is a result of a lot of 'consensus' and 'compormise' rather than clear cut facts or truths.

and yet conflicts and contradictions abound and sectarianism flourishes.

In such an atmosphere it's funny to see fanatics on a witch hunt to castigate anyone who doesn't subscribe to these majority sects who currently 'own' Islam.

65

"why do you insist on being so obtuse??"

If you would not reply "obtusely," I would't be asking you so many questions.

*All I said was that contrary to popular belief, present day Islam is a result of a lot of 'consensus' and 'compormise' rather than clear cut facts or truths.

and yet conflicts and contradictions abound and sectarianism flourishes.

In such an atmosphere it's funny to see fanatics on a witch hunt to castigate anyone who doesn't subscribe to these majority sects who currently 'own' Islam.*

I didn't ASK you about today's Islam, I asked you about people who lived from death of our Prophet Mohammad(saw) and on until this fitna of SUNNAH being NOT good came about. Do you understand what my question is asking? I don't care what you have to say about TODAYS islam, I am asking you about Islam of the past, where people went by QURAN and then SUNNAH(the way of the prophet) of the prophet.

I don't understand why YOu are avoiding the question. Even if I did, I wouldn't mention it because you would deny it as always. NOW ANSWER the QUESTION that is being asked, don't put nonsense from what is HAPPENING IN TODAYS islam, when question is about people who followed ISLAM(QURAN and SUNNAHT) in the past.

If you people say that SUNNAHT is bad bad today, was it bad bad before this idea of SUNNAH not needed came about?

Instead of acting like a num-head, answer the question openly and without any hasitation. You believe in something, be proud of it and admit in openly.

AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM: "DO NOT MAKE MISCHIEF ON THE EARTH", THEY SAY "WE ARE ONLY PEACE-MAKERS" VERILY, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO MAKES MISCHIEF, BUT THEY PERCEIVE NOT"-[Qur'an-2:11-12]

66

[quote]
Originally posted by Serial Guppy:
[BI didn't ASK you about today's Islam, I asked you about people who lived from death of our Prophet Mohammad(saw) and on until this fitna of SUNNAH being NOT good came about.**
[/quote]

There u go being obtuse again and displaying your total ignorance of the subject. The real question is when did this fitna of Qur'an being not enough came about.. and that's around the time of Omar bin AbdulAziz.

[quote]
I am asking you about Islam of the past, where people went by QURAN and then SUNNAH(the way of the prophet) of the prophet.
[/quote]

So sure that people went by Qur'an and Sunnah?? were you there??

[quote]
I don't understand why YOu are avoiding the question.
[/quote]

Maybe it looks that way cuz u're not getting the answers you'd like to hear which will help you in stereotyping and more bashing based on allegiance to some sect or the other..

[quote]
don't put nonsense from what is HAPPENING IN TODAYS islam, when question is about people who followed ISLAM(QURAN and SUNNAHT) in the past.
[/quote]

So today's Islam was just born all of a sudden without borrowing anything from the arguments, compromises, consensus, disagreements and sectarinanism evolving over a period of time??

I know it may be a little over your heard and out of your league, so this may be my last response to your imbecilic questions.

oh and yes.. I believe in the Qur'an ALONE and am damn proud of it.

67

O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and make not vain your deeds!

Let us examine, if we may, the above verse.

Firstly, Allah is addressing the Believers at this particular time.

Secondly, Allah states that he is to be obeyed. No sane person would doubt this, for it is the word of Allah. However for some unknown reason there appears to be some ambiguity about the statement that follows it.

Allah also states that the Messenger is to be obeyed as well. Now, from the outset I would say once again that no sane person would doubt that the Messenger (sallallaahu 'alihi wa sallam) is to be obeyed as well, however there appears to be a breach not in the acceptance of the verse but in understanding what is actually being ordered.

We have established that the Messenger (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) is to be followed, however we must ask ourselves a question once again. In his infinite wisdom, Allah knew when he revealed this verse that the Messenger (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) would soon die and that his Ummah (nation) would carry on after his death. Understanding this, we must ask the question of how do we understand this verse of the Qur'an after the death of Muhammad (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam). Is it no longer applicable? Of course it is! The Sunnah is the explanation of the Qur'an. It is the Qur'an in practice.

O Muslim reader, you must know that the Qur'an and the Sunnah do not contradict one another, rather they complement one another. When Allah says in this verse that the Messenger is to be obeyed, he is not only talking to that Honorable group of Muslims that accompanied the Prophet (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) during his lifetime. He is speaking to all of the Muslims that will come up until the Last Day. Similarly, no one is ready to conceive the notion that when Allah Says (which means in English) O ye who believe! that the only ones who believe are the Muslims who were with the Prophet (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) at that time and no one after them believed and no one else will ever believe! This would be grossly limiting the Qur'an in a way that was not understood by the Prophet (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) himself.

Beware Abdullah! The Shaytan is crafty! He may then try to sway your thinking from another angle. He may say that the Qur'an is simple to understand and that it needs no explanation. For it is true that Allah says:

We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember - Surah Al-Qamar:32

However, although the Qur'an is easy to understand, it does need to be explained so that it is properly understood. Allah says in His Book:

And when We have recited it to you (O Muhammad through Jibreel Gabriel]) then follow its (The Qur'an's) recital. Then it is for Us (Allah) to make it clear (to you) - Surah Al-Qiyamah:18,19

Surely if the Qur'an had to be made clear to the Messenger (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam), then how much more so to you and I? Is it logical at this point to assume that the Qur'an needs no explanation when Allah says:

…And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad) the Reminder, that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought -Surah An-Nahl:44

In this verse Allah is exhorting the Messenger (sallallahu 'alaihi wa sallam) to not merely recite the Qur'an but to expalin it as well. Obviously , some explanation is required even to the most pious of men.

Truly the list of proofs can go on and on. However, I will list just a few Insha Allah:

…(And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. -Surah An-Nisaa:59

68

PA, again you twisted, turned and ignored the QUESTIOn I asked. Oh well, I guess you don’t have any “real” answer to it. Just mere conjectures and “judgements.” Trying to look all good by calling me imbecilic eh?

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

If you were answering my question without any hasitation to avoid it, you would never get this irritated to use personal insults towards me when answering a simple question.

You proved one thing: You follow a CULT and you are ignorant of their beliefs and fitna they created by denoucing sunnaht of Mohammad(saw). ALl you can say is, I BELIEVE in QURAn and that is all matters, just to avoid any association with any cult, live in denial and lies and still say you “believe” in quran. Acting UPON it is another thing.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

You don’t have to answer any questions. Your continuation of ignoring and avoiding the ONE question I asked was enough to tell me you are suffering and it is very painful for you to give me the REAL answer to the QUESTION being asked.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

AND WHEN IT IS SAID TO THEM: “DO NOT MAKE MISCHIEF ON THE EARTH”, THEY SAY “WE ARE ONLY PEACE-MAKERS” VERILY, THEY ARE THE ONES WHO MAKES MISCHIEF, BUT THEY PERCEIVE NOT"-[Qur’an-2:11-12]

69

Salaamz just to keep it simple the 4 definte soucres of legislation are

1 Quran
2 Sunnah
3 Ijamah a sabah
4 Qiyas

Whoever rejects sunnah or any of the above has the rgt to be classed as non muslim......ppl whats the point discussin issue abt sunnah every muslim KNOWS n AGREE with the sunnah...so if a person is rejectin the sunnah as far as i know they not classed as muslim

70

so who died and appointed you incharge of declaring others Non-Muslims??

71

PakistaniAbroad - It took me an hour to read the whole thread and believe me we both have similar thinking about hadiths. I am at school right now so cant write much, but will join the discussion once I get home!

Aatif

72

LOL

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif