PakistaniAbroad . .

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21

The Hadith were written roughly about 10-20 years after the death of the Holy Prophet (S).

Before Imam Bukhari (rah.), there were, ** ATLEAST THOUSANDS of books on hadeeth. ** (This is a very ** CONSERVATIVE ** figure)

Before the Scholars and the students of religion, used to ** MEMORIZE the AHAADEETH, JUST as they used to memorize the QUR'AN. **

A note-book belonging to one of the students of Hadhrat ** Abu Hurairah (R) ** was found, and it contained many ahadeeth (if I remember correctly, 168). These ahaadeeth were ** COMPARED ** with our collection of ahaadeeth, and ** every word was found to be authentic. **

Imam Bukhari (rah.) merely compiled the ahadeeth that were already existent and studied. He didn't write them down.

And the conditions of Imam Bukhari (rah.) are very very ** strict **. I haven't read all the conditions, but some of the conditions that I've read are very strict, and should leave very little doubt regarding the authenticity of the ahadeeth.

Also, we have the ** biographies of 100,000 NARRATORS ** of ahaadeeth, and that's a lot of data. There are ** very strict criteria ** to judge a narrator.

Also, the Qur'an says that ** if you desire a religion other than Islam, it'll never be accepted of you ** and also it says ** to follow the Holy Prophet (S) ** and also says ** to take what the Holy Prophet (S) permits us, and to refrain from what he prohibits us. ** (not the exact words).

Now, ** if only Islam is acceptable to Allah (SWT), HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW THE SAME ISLAM , if the ahaadeeth are missing? Do you think "OUR FORM OF ISLAM" is an acceptable alternative to the "Holy Prophet's (S) Islam" ?? **

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[quote]
Originally posted by Indian_Muslim:
The Hadith were written roughly about 10-20 years after the death of the Holy Prophet (S).
[/quote]

Absolutely incorrect. There is NO documentary evidence even for the Qur'an, let alone Hadith for 10 to 20 years after the Prophet's death.

[quote]
Before Imam Bukhari (rah.), there were, ** ATLEAST THOUSANDS of books on hadeeth. ** (This is a very ** CONSERVATIVE ** figure)
[/quote]

Earliest written material would still be 100 years after the Prophet's death.

[quote]
Before the Scholars and the students of religion, used to ** MEMORIZE the AHAADEETH, JUST as they used to memorize the QUR'AN. **
[/quote]

The Qur'an wasn't only memorized.. from the day it started being revealed, the Prophet made sure it was written and scribes were assigned. NO scribes were assigned for Hadith. No Books compiled.

Spare me the super human memory anecdotes, suffice to say Qur'an itself stresses on documentation and science proves a severe communication breakdown in oral transmissions, a phenomenon known as Chinese Whispers.

[quote]
A note-book belonging to one of the students of Hadhrat ** Abu Hurairah (R) ** was found, and it contained many ahadeeth (if I remember correctly, 168). These ahaadeeth were ** COMPARED ** with our collection of ahaadeeth, and ** every word was found to be authentic. **
[/quote]

There are NO guarantees that Abu Huraira didn't start the fabrications. He was a Jewish convert who only had a couple of years of time with the Prophet in which he compiled an abnormally large number of hadith. He used to hang out with other Jews and introduced many Judaeo-Christian concepts into Islam through his ludicrous narrations, most of which were with him as the ONLY witness!!

He was also accused of embezzlement of funds as Bahrain's Governor by the second Caliph. Looks like Bukhari missed that point.

[quote]
And the conditions of Imam Bukhari (rah.) are very very ** strict **.
[/quote]

makes me laugh.. does anyone on this site actually ever read what they are talking about??

Sahih is classified according to the reliability and memory of reporters

PERIOD.

[quote]
Also, we have the *biographies of 100,000 NARRATORS * of ahaadeeth, and that's a lot of data. There are ** very strict criteria ** to judge a narrator.
[/quote]

like what?? sometimes they pass if they've even 'seen' the Prophet in their lifetimes even if they weren't an adult at that time.

btw the first written histories again are not until a 100 years after.. even more.

[quote]
Also, the Qur'an says ** to follow the Holy Prophet (S) **
[/quote]

Unfortunately he isn't around no more. What he left is the Qur'an.. so let's follow that... not fabrications attributed to him.

[quote]
and also says ** to take what the Holy Prophet (S) permits us, and to refrain from what he prohibits us. ** (not the exact words).
[/quote]

yeah and not even the right context.. The verse is regarding distribution of the loot after a war.

[quote]
Now, ** if only Islam is acceptable to Allah (SWT), HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW THE SAME ISLAM if the ahaadeeth are missing?
[/quote]

I can't even begin to respond to this.. what do you mean?? Islam is what it's in the Hadith and the Qur'an is????

why did Allah send over 6000 verses?? so that some Persians can compile fabrications to explain it 250 years later??

[quote]
Do you think "OUR FORM OF ISLAM" is an acceptable alternative to the "Holy Prophet's (S) Islam" ?? ****
[/quote]

The Prophet's Islam is in the Qur'an. What's in the hadiths is the Judaeo-Christian-Pagan influences on Islam.. Follow at your own peril.

So it shall be written, so it shall be done

[This message has been edited by PakistaniAbroad (edited April 11, 2002).]

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PakistaniAbroad- Thread brought back up for your convenience.

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PA,

  1. Do you 'believe' in the bible?
  2. Do you believe that Bible hold 'some' truth, though have been manipulated?
  3. Would you reject 'each and everything from the Bible' just because there are somethings in there that are man made?

I haven't read all the above back n forth arguments, so don't shoot me if you have already answered this. (You can cut/paste the answer)

[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited April 19, 2002).]

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So pakibraod tell me how do u pray? , so if imam bukhari was a persian, does that make him less of a muslim??

Plz do answer my question how should one offer salat??

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Many people also say that Quran was hand written. So Pakiabroad how would u comment on this????

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[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
1. Do you 'believe' in the bible?
[/quote]

I believe Hazrat Isa received a Scripture.

[quote]
2. Do you believe that Bible hold 'some' truth, though have been manipulated?
[/quote]

The current Bible has been collected from the memories of the disciples. It's unreliable like all other oral transmissions. It was officially reorganized by the Church and revised from time to time.

[quote]
3. Would you reject 'each and everything from the Bible' just because there are somethings in there that are man made?
[/quote]

I have the Qur'an for guidance. I need not wade through the Bible to separate fact from fiction.

So it shall be written, so it shall be done

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Pakiabroad come on answer my question, where in the Quran is the instuction of pray??

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[quote]
so if imam bukhari was a persian, does that make him less of a muslim??
Plz do answer my question how should one offer salat??
[/quote]

It doesn't. But it sure takes away from him the advantage of speaking Arabic as a first language.

We are discussing that in one of these threads.. look around.

[quote]
Originally posted by reza khan:
Many people also say that Quran was hand written. So Pakiabroad how would u comment on this????
[/quote]

Hand written? as opposed to being printed?? yes I'd agree.. someone had to write it down.

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PA- This thread was brought back up so you could continue the discussion from the other thread. Please avoid distractions.

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Absolutely wrong, I would advise u to first know the history of Imam Bukhari. Iran or persia u call was Arab at that time, all those people were called persians as they were residents of persia. He was born in Uzbekistan. And he spoke arabic as his mother tongue.

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Come on Pakistani Abroad, please be kind enough and tell us how you pray and where exactly in the Qur'aan it tells us how to pray and how many units to pray.

I have read the Qur'aan on numerous occassions and cannot find the details!!!!

Please help a Brother out.

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His answer must be like his other cult-brothers: You pray as you wish, as many rakahs as you can and whatever way is easier for you.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

bang on Rashid Khilafa’s grave, wake up!! You didn’t tell us about some major things and how to twist them

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http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

this is not first time he’s dodging the question “how do you offer salat”

one time he answered to the effect that:
I learnt it from parents, who learnt it from their parents… from their forefathers…

perhaps his beleif in his forefathers is much more than narrations of Hazrat Ayesha (RA), Hazrat Abu Dharr (RA), etc.

May Allah SWT guide us all towards right and help us follow the right

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If he wants to answer us, he can. Lets not shove answers in his mouth. And if he wants to skip that question- we cant force him either.

I am confused though because I understand that he’s an intelligent individual, and he would’ve definitely given this issue a thought. I’m hopeful he’ll be back with an answer.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Ace (edited April 22, 2002).]

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PA do u believe in Sunnah?????

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They have no proof of sunnah not being acceptable....there was one more guy i met who didnt believ in hadith, and he said to me that Prophet told us not to right down anyting besides Quran, now i told him, u said u dont believe in hadith, but no u r qouting a Prophet's saying(i dotn know if the saying is true but..), so wht is tht??
HE doesnt believes in hadith but then tells me abt Prophet's saying....this is a new group emerging that doesnt believe in hadith....do the think all the past generations are wrong from the time of sahabas???And that they r right???

38

059.007
YUSUFALI: What Allah has bestowed on His Messenger (and taken away) from the people of the townships,- belongs to Allah,- to His Messenger and to kindred and orphans, the needy and the wayfarer; In order that it may not (merely) make a circuit between the wealthy among you. So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah; for Allah is strict in Punishment.

PICKTHAL: That which Allah giveth as spoil unto His messenger from the people of the townships, it is for Allah and His messenger and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, that it become not a commodity between the rich among you. And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it). And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal.

SHAKIR: Whatever Allah has restored to His Messenger from the people of the towns, it is for Allah and for the Messenger, and for the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer, so that it may not be a thing taken by turns among the rich of you, and whatever the Messenger gives you, accept it, and from whatever he forbids you, keep back, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely Allah is severe in retributing (evil):

My question to PA is about "documentary evidence", how can you trust any one, whom you have not seen?

The truth is that even if there was any "documentary evidence" that would have met your standards of acceptance, there would be other people who would find it hard to accept what you accepted.

39

[quote]
mdbao wrote:
now i told him, u said u dont believe in hadith, but no u r qouting a Prophet's saying(i dotn know if the saying is true but..), so wht is tht??
[/quote]

mdbao, the argument is not if he believes in it.. it's the fact that you believe in it and he was giving you an example from a source you accept to be truthful. The saying is present in Hadith compilations.

Feel free to refute him using what he believes.

[quote]
do the think all the past generations are wrong from the time of sahabas???And that they r right???
[/quote]

We are not to follow past generations.. but the Qur'an. The Qur'an warns many times about the dangerous path of blindly following ancestors.. that's how messages get lost and corrupted..

[al-A`raf 7:173.11] Or you should say: Only our fathers associated others (with Allah) before, and we were an offspring after them: Wilt Thou then destroy us for what the vain doers did?

[al-A`raf 7:174] And thus do We make clear the communications, and that haply they might return.

PakistaniAbroad: This is the Qur'an Allah is revealing.

[al-A`raf 7:175] And recite to them the narrative of him to whom We give Our communications, but he withdraws himself from them, so the Shaitan overtakes him, so he is of those who go astray.

PakistaniAbroad: This is what happens to those who reject Allah's communications.

[al-`Ankabut 29:8] And We have enjoined on man goodness to his parents, and if they contend with you that you should associate (others) with Me, of which you have no knowledge, do not obey them, to Me is your return, so I will inform you of what you did.

[quote]
Different wrote

My question to PA is about "documentary evidence", how can you trust any one, whom you have not seen?
[/quote]

First off, please stop misquoting verses. This is the second time u've done it. The verses have a context.. they are not to be abused.

As for documentary evidence, let's say I'll trust the 'older' or closer to the 'origin' document. There is a leap of faith required for me to believe the Qur'an based on the available copies from a couple of decades after it was revealed. I have managed to make that based on the content. I refuse to accept the corrupt hadith literature compiled centuries later as anything divine.

[quote]
The truth is that even if there was any "documentary evidence" that would have met your standards of acceptance, there would be other people who would find it hard to accept what you accepted.
[/quote]

Well currently, all knowledgable people reject Hadith writings or at least question their authenticity. It's only zealous 'mainstream muslims' who cling to this literature.

40

[quote]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad:
** First off, please stop misquoting verses. This is the second time u've done it. The verses have a context.. they are not to be abused.

As for documentary evidence, let's say I'll trust the 'older' or closer to the 'origin' document. There is a leap of faith required for me to believe the Qur'an based on the available copies from a couple of decades after it was revealed. I have managed to make that based on the content. I refuse to accept the corrupt hadith literature compiled centuries later as anything divine.

Well currently, all knowledgable people reject Hadith writings or at least question their authenticity. It's only zealous 'mainstream muslims' who cling to this literature.**
[/quote]

Why do you want to choose parts of The Quran and dis-regard or ignore parts? I cannot quote The whole Quran here..., you can't just choose what you like and use it where you feel like using it. Accept every thing and accept that everything is linked together and since your objection mainly is that there are Hadith that contradict Quran, if you are not able to accept some verses from The Quran, what do you think that implies to?

047.032
YUSUFALI: Those who reject Allah, hinder (men) from the Path of Allah, and resist the Messenger, after Guidance has been clearly shown to them, will not injure Allah in the least, but He will make their deeds of no effect.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and oppose the messenger after the guidance hath been manifested unto them, they hurt Allah not a jot, and He will make their actions fruitless.
SHAKIR: Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way and oppose the Messenger after that guidance has become clear to them cannot harm Allah in any way, and He will make null their deeds.

047.033
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the messenger, and make not vain your deeds!
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the messenger, and render not your actions vain.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and do not make your deeds of no effect.

047.034
YUSUFALI: Those who reject Allah, and hinder (men) from the Path of Allah, then die rejecting Allah,- Allah will not forgive them.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and then die disbelievers, Allah surely will not pardon them.
SHAKIR: Surely those who disbelieve and turn away from Allah's way, then they die while they are unbelievers, Allah will by no means forgive them.

And why should you trust any "closer to the origin" document? Give me one reason!

How can you guarantee that, that "closer to the origin document" is not fabricated??