Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
Painting with an extremely wide brush as usual.
Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
Aejaz bhai, yes I read your post. Just to be pedantic about it, it was a typo not a spelling error.
Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
This is an original point of view. Don’t Pakistani women, the wives of these councillors have an opinion in the matter when a sister muslimah is being raped or do they close their eyes to it? If this is not unislamic I don’t know what is.
Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
That and he didn’t get laid last night.
Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
Thanks Expatobserver Bhai,
Thats maybe the right way to look at it, But I have already put it behind me, and have accordingly apologised to Fraudia Bhai, for blowing it out of proportion.
Aejaz
Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
Its not the Mullahs who make these kinda stupid decisions but the "elders" of these villages....but Mullahs don't do anything to stop it either. I am surprised that with Musharaf being a "powerful" president, with all the army n with all these NGOs and what not, nobody can stop these idiots from doing these things? do we need an army to stop this??????? This is sooooooo stupid that gov't has no control over them, what kinda govt do we have?
Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
Obviously government that shuts its eyes to this atrocity and silently condones it.
Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
**Another incident in Punjab. Seems to me that Punjab is the center of a lot of these crimes.
Maybe Musharraf will buy more F-16’s and build more nuclear weapons in response. May Allah provide justice to the victims in this life and in the hereafter. Ameen**
Pakistani man mauls sister who married for love
(DPA)
27 November 2005
ISLAMABAD - A man chopped his 20-year-old sister’s legs for marrying a villager of her choice in Pakistan’s eastern Punjab province, a news report said on Sunday.
Daily Times said Naseem Bibi and her husband, Saeed Ahmed, were working in the fields when her elder brother with some villagers attacked them and cut her legs.
“She is in very critical condition in Bahawal Victoria Hospital because of over bleeding,” a senior police office, Arif Nawaz, told the newspaper.
He said Bibi’s brother had also filed a police report against his brother-in-law for kidnapping, but police discharged the case after she disclosed that the couple married willingly.
“He must have committed this crime in a fit of anger,” Nawaz said.
Violence against women is a growing concern in the male-dominated Pakistani society, where females are killed by their male relatives for disgracing their family’s honour by marrying of her own choice rather than accept an arranged mating. Daughters and sisters are also given in marriage to rivals for settlement of disputes.
Despite President General Pervez Musharraf declared “honour killing” a crime publicly, the independent Human Rights Commission of Pakistan says there is not decline in the numbers of such cases as at least more than 750 so-called honour killings have been reported in last 18 months.
According to another human rights watchdog, Lawyers for Human Rights and Legal Aid, ten women are physically abused every day in the Moslem country.
“Violence against women happens everywhere, even in the educated, upper and upper-middle classes of our society. The problem is they (women) don’t resist or stand up against it because of their fear that society will blame them instead of abusers,” said Tahira Abdullah, a women’s rights activist.
(Oh, I wonder where women would get such a crazy idea from? :rolleyes:)
Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
Weaker segments of Pak population comprising of women, children, minorities and the poor conitnue to suffer at the hands of tradition, religious bigotry, extremism, lust for power and a judicial setup which favors the few.
Real problem lies witht he general public. Stories like these have been making the headlines for decades, its intensity has only increased recently. So why does the general public not show any outrage? General public includes politicians, Ulema, civil servants, business people, landlords, common people, military officers and professionals. All we hear are a few statements expressing outrage over the incident and offering sympathy with the victims. Everyone expects the other person to clean the mess, sympathy is there but with no material help offered. We shall feel remorse, but for a very short span of our lives and then we move on to other important things leaving behind these ugly memories which disturb our quaint, worldy affair.
If these barbaric traditions are to be changed then civil society will have to get its act together, form help lines for the victims and mobilize political elements in passing stern laws against such evil practices. Once these laws are in place, then implementation should be emphasized and monitored. Everything is possible, its just a matter of time and effort.
Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
Paak ser zameeen shaad baad...
ISLAMIC republic of pakistan! bwaahahahahaha
I'm waiting for someone to somehow blame this on the west...
Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
Let me just give you a snap shoot of the 2nd largest city in Pakistan and the governments investment in security and safety of its citizens. All the numbers are from the government](http://www.statpak.gov.pk/) site.
Population of Lahore with number of Police Stations in the City
1998
Population - Police Stations
5,143,495-74
2003
Population - Police Stations
5,966,454-76
Check any other site and you would be surprised that the pop of Lahore is around 6.5 million and the number of police stations would still be 76. These are just the police stations, the numbers for schools per population and the courts are even more dismal. Check the number of cases pending in the court and you would find out that its would take another 70 years for the current court system to handle the cases. These are 2003 Numbers, where as in the same year the federal government spent only 0.0037% of its total budget on the federal courts.
Now in this situation the government tries to innovate and tries to appoint tahisldars , councilmen (village elders, not you typical nazim PA) and punjait leaders to mediate in “small cases” and “disputes”. The village punjait leaders have the full support of the local Assistant Commissioner or the DC. Since it creates a hierarchy of administrative control in an area with few or no administrative resources. That the case in western Punjab and south eastern Punjab.
Now imagine how the local tribesmen would dispense justice when he is made in charge of the people in absence of judicial infrastructure. How would he dispense justice if he has some sort of interest in the dispute as well, or he knows that the nearest police chowki is about 20 or 30 kilometers? Above all this he is also the “Pir” as well, so now as long as you have these kinds of administrative innovations and “Islamic” innovations togather, you will keep on seeing these incidents.
As I said earlier we need radical investment in Judicail and educational system, not the typical 0.004% and lots of talk.
Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
Very well dissected, MiniMe!
It makes sense to fortify the most basic tenets of a modern and civilized society i.e a methodical and effective judicial system.
I am sure someone has already proposed this plan in Pakistan.
Just wondering what the major obstacles are to implement this…can’t happen soon enough, though.
Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
Karachi is even more horrible (with the paindoos who get on deputation from Punjab / sindh themselves robbing people).
I swear it is not funny that people’s houses were robbed and they found policemen patrolling outside their houses (to assist the robbers or many times robbers themselves) so what is the need even for more police stations?
Just for more avenues of corruption??? 
Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
Good points made by MiniMe. These crimes happen because people know that there is no rule of law and anyone can be bought of in Pakistan.
This behavior emanates from the top, where the army can rape the constitution whenever it likes for the "good of the country". It all comes down to how society treats rule-breakers. Most of us will make excuses for the army for instance and this mentality is than applied by others in every situation.
That is why unbiased and independent democratic institutions are the most important for a country, even fi they harm us in the short-term with corrupt politicians. It is the long-term effects of breaking laws and not abiding by the constitution that we have to look at.
Take America for example, where they have great respect for the constitution, even if sometimes it seems to be taken to the extreme, but at least there is some consistency in policy making. In Pakistan, every new ruler, follows his own new rules.
Once we have a democratic system, people will eventually themselves hold politicians and the army accountable and force the government to spend money on the court system and police, instead of F-16's and Mercedes.
Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
but mashallah we have enough mosques don't we? i don't think the Government makes these.
People will forever complain and moan and blame the government but will never ever do anything to help themselves. Where were the people when these "village elders" gave the draconian orders? by their silence aren't they complicit? by his performing such a nikah isn't the mullah complicit? how on earth would the AC/DC know about these events unless it's officially reported to the authorities?
Imagine a young AC appointed to the area.. when a bunch of "village elders" make such a ruling.. he'd be stupid not to realize the people were behind it.. does he have enough guts/manpower to enforce his own decision on them.. (you've already proved he doesn't by pointing out the lack of police station and force). Still think government is responsible?
Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
Till the day "everyone is equal" is enforced by Law such cases will keep occurring. No fuedalism, no landlordism, no ARMYism, etcism.
Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
The people have been denied proper education, healthcare, law enforcement, and court system by the government. When they have no support system to back them up, what can they really do? These village elders are propped up by the landlords who win favor from the army by doing its dirty work in elections. This is how the system works.
The corruption comes from the top and trickles down to everyone in society. Blaming the masses is the typical thinking of army generals who like to think of civilians as idiots who cannot be trusted with electing honest people. The truth is that the generals do not allow honest people to come into the scene with their horse trading, lotas and power plays.
Change starts from the top and bottom. Only one side cannot change and hope to see results. The argument that destroying democracy is for the good of the people because the alternative is worse is bogus.
Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
No..that is not the “reason”
the behavior of peopel has to be a factor as well
what stops a law abiding citizen of one country from thorwing garbage in the street when he is in a country that has no law enforcement on littering? its civility, decency, etc.
Just saying people will do whatever because there are no laws paints a very bleak picture for the Pakistani society.
Yes law enforcement is important …law enforcement is weak in Pakistan and the legal system is overwhelmed
but..how many ppl has anyone here killed, robbed, abused just because law enforcement is weak.
Guys… there are somethings called called decency, common sense, responsibility.
In this case, they were absent.
so please, do point out the weaknesses in pakistan’s legal system, but lets not forget that the people who were part of this shameful situation had a choice to do the right thing, and they simply did not.
Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
^^^ agreed
Pakistan's problems are typically blamed on feudals and the government. Not that they dont play a role, but it is really the rigidity and entrenchment of the honor system, caste, and what have you, (in this case punjab). In Pakistan, when men are divided between Shia Sunni, Ahmadi, women have stood aloof from this nonsense. So what do they get for all this favorable, rational and semi-progressive contributions? Poor literacy levels, half a status, 5 children/women, honor killings and so on. Pakistan is paying the price of keeping the most progressive and very large segment of the society from making its influence stick. Current literacy levels in Punjab is quite poor, tho it is far better than what is was in 1947. It is this tremendous gap between literacy levels of men and women that is showing its ugly effects in every sphere of interest except spirituality realted interests. I dont believe that blaming it entirely on Pakistan, feudalism or mullahism is right. It is the cost of obsession with an outdated, backward, retrogressive, tribal male-dominated paradigm, which has no advantage over rational, logical approches to handle problems. "If you educate a man you educate one person; if you educate a woman you educate and liberate a nation." - Malcolm X
Re: Pakistan Blood debt women offered up for rape
Sure people had the choice to do the right thing, but they didn’t do it. Now the question, which becomes important is that, is there any system or law designed in such a way that it forces people to do the right thing or make the right choices? Yes, there is, and it’s known as the law, its enforcement and education. These are the things, which makes a society more civil, decent and responsible.
In any society in any given time the absence of law and its enforcement can create chaos, and that’s is not just specific to Pakistani society, its universal, it happened in Japan it happens in New York and it has a direct relationship to the educational and economic conditions prevalent at that time. But In Pakistan, as soon as you are out of urban areas, the facts of life changes. Its different set of law, a different set of education and hence different people.
Fraudia let just agree on disagreeing on this matter, I believe that the there is this segment in our society which believe that the common uneducated, uncivilized, jahil piando is the cause of all the ills in our society, and hence don’t deserve any education or legal or physical infrastructure. This believe keeps that segment of our society very safe, and is one of the reason of the injustice in our society. Now you can give this segment any name, Mullah, military, bureaucracy, jagirdars or a combination of all but the fact remains.