Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
atleast u admit it as tradition.
and the answer is yes there is…
just as you are motivated by your experiences to dismiss unfair traditions just because the west is just as guilty.
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
there IS no logical reason…
i am getting a headache because on one hand lahore981 is arguing on the basis of god’s words as divine and piccoico as there being a logic behind it.
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
So what distinguishes it from the other rules?
I mean, let’s go back to the issue of state-enforced Hijab…or state-imposed dress code in general. I get the felling that since Hijab is linked to religion, it’s considered bad…but the state saying “no pants means jail time for you” is okay…
Again, this is the self-imposed bias I’m talking about. It IS the same act, i.e. imposing a dress code…culturally we’re accusotomed to one so when anything else contradicts that we thnk of excuses to put down the other because it’s out of the ordinary. Is this about choice? Deep down, I don’t think so…
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
So, it was dreamed up for what reason then?
I mean, let’s be fair and mention that this isn’t really a part of the ritual itself (which given a little thought all make sense too, but that’s not why we do them…we do them because that’s how the Prophet (saw) did them). It’s a condition on performing the ritual.
Why do you think this limitation was put in place? No reason, just a random thing? Men are pigs?
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
But that’s the thing…we’re using the western culture as our touchstone of what is fair and unfair in the first place. I mean, for argument’s sake we can exted or positions to the logical extremes…consider the dress code. Shuold it REALLY be a matter of choice for people to walk around naked or not?
Even your choice of wording is a bit odd: unfair traditions? Well, recognizing the west has it’s own equivalents for many of them doesn’t seem to be satisfying since nobody ever gives those a second thought…
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
why? could it be that it is just one more way an act of discrimination against women is carried out? another way women are reminded of the fact that they are nothing without their man/mehram? and thus inferior to them?
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
picoico i have already answered that i am not going to answer you again about what distinguishes a rule on stopping a woman from going w/o mehram from one thats about what color sheet to wear.
ofcourse its all relevant but what exactly do u mean by no pants rule? do u mean to say that since indecent exposure laws exist in pakistan…i cant argue against hijab laws?
in this case it is ALL about what each person thinks right? so tell me why arent there laws against not covering head…or even your arms… in pakistan? or lets just ask WHY is shariat not implemented 100% in pakistan? could it be that OTHERS also think in this way?..that they shudder at the thought of roaming in tent burqas?
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
did u hear me arguing that parading around naked should be a choice? why is everything so black and white? why is it that if i dont support ONE or more parts of a school of thought i MUST agree with EVERYTHING an entirely opposite school of thought suggests?the west (oh god i cant believe im using this term) has its share of issues too. having a CHOICE is what EVERY human is born with! it is not a product of the WEST. that is why you are given a MIND and a soul to make decisions…
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
I thought so. Now I see your angle. So, you construe this requirement as a neccessary precondition that Muslim men have placed on the Hajj for women to complete the spiritual journy. That is, a women needs a man to validate her Hajj.
That’s a load of malarky, imho…and is exactly the kind of “westernized” response (i.e. must be something wrong with the ‘Muslim mentalitly’) I’ve learned to reject. It’s quite patronizing, to boot.
This has nothing to do with superior/inferior…it has everything to do with the old way of protecting one’s family members vs reconciling ourselves with the reality that it is now the state, and not individuals, which is responsible for security. Easing up on my position, I can see a day where the requirement may be revisited and lifted as part of ijtehad…I mean, nowdays men aren’t even allowed to carry arms, so what kind of defense are they going to put up against any bandit?
But this is exactly what I’m talking about when I say self-hate. Why do you assume it’s some devious reason?
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
To be fair, all you pointed out was that one restricted a women from going to Hajj and the other restricted the way she dressed. Not much was provided in why one w
as a-okay, and the other a big no-no…
No, but if you argue against Hijab then what about all the other enforced dress codes. See the difference? Why is one dress code okay, and not the other?
Technically there is, as no law can contradict Islamic law…however Pakistanis choose to define it.
In any case, I don’t think we’re in any position to say boo to them if such laws do exist (as they do in Iran), since we do the same and don’t have a problem with our own imposed limitations.
As for why some Pakistani women DON’T cover up as per tradition…why? I mean, could colonialism and an inferiroity complex about their own religio-cultural traditions have anything to do with it?
Honestly, let’s say if the West never got out of victorian fashion. Just hypothetically…what do you think “mod” women in Pakistan would be wearing?
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
You misunderstand me…my intent was just to carry things to their logical ends. Yes, there is no black or white…what makes things gray? It’s all those illogical bits in between…
Woa, woa! I’m not making ANY judgements here…I’m just asking a bunch of questions, that’s all…and to be fair, I’ve tried hard to restrict my comments to a handful of issues and tried to focus on what you wrote…
Look, my point wasn’t about west bashing…there’s nothing wrong in using that term either. People who discuss Islam here use it all the time…read any article on Islam, critical or not, and the authors will always make the distinction between Islam and the west…
I’m not even saying the west has issues too…I’m just asking why are we (you and I…again, I’m not pointing fingers here, just trying to make observations) so duplicitous when it comes to some things? This is a case of double standards, no?
I admit, I’m just as guilty…
Well, I understand this, but I think an even greater human need is that of belonging to a social group…we here in the west often feel the need so great that we’re willing to internalize bigoted views of ourselves when our intent is not at all to be hateful…
Just to be sure, I’m not bombarding you with a zillion questions to test your loyalty or “set you straight” or anything like that…I recognize a lot of the arguments you’re bringing up, and I’m pretty much just throwing those questions I had for myself at you.
If you think I’m ignoring something you really want answerd let me know and we can focus on that…
I may not agree with you on everything, but I mean no disrespect…honest…
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
Miss shweetdreamz,
First of all I have long finished my response becaue I think I have explained most of myside and all that is left now is arguing for the sake of arguing and I don’t wanna do that.
Your argument about Hajj is neither practically sound nor it seems logical. Just because you think that way doesn’t mean things should be that way. And you are not trying to understand Islamic Laws within Islamic context. Rather you are trying to understand Islamic laws while mentally oriented to non-islamic society. Fitting rectangle in a sphere.
Please read my long response to that question with open mind. You’ll get the answer in post # 38.
PS. I think “picoico” has presented many good points that can stimulate an awake mind. Good work Picoico 
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
Whatever charisma and enchantment the west has created in the name of "freedom" of women and is quite attractive at first and to the young immature minds but then these ladies can understand it when they pass a big part of their lives in this mirage, when they understand life a little more. But till that time, time has looooooooong gone to do something.......
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
I think Lahore and Picoico had a great discussion on the values that are to be preserved and promoted.
We all had been to the road of questiong the ‘rules’ and ‘laws’ asking WHY? WHY NOT? etc.
I am not sure how old or experienced SW is but its probably going to be the time when she will realize the importance of having RULES and Disciplines.
Even in west college girls are not allowed to or are advised to walk outside dorm with a man. Nothing wrong with it. it is waste of taxpayer money to fight crimes and need to be prevented at all front.
We seem to have drifted away from topic due to one person’s adherence to ‘personal choice’ when it has been so obvious that so called ‘personal choice’ is not so freely available in ANY society for good reason.
Society has to enforce rules and laws to protect people from being hurt. And no matter how much SW denies she can’t deny that women in general NEED strong support of a man. off course minority of exceptions may exist but why should majority be put in danger for it?
I keep talking about west since there we see so called freedom of choice. A woman suffers lot more in west than east and its a fact! Woman works, takes care of household.
Before this she is a toy for several men (Average number of men a woman end up kissing in her lifetime is somewhere 60-80) who after dating for years say ‘I don’t love you anymore’. Men leave child in the hand of women and single mom gets back to dating game and many more men play her around.
Just read the statistics of single moms barely making a good life and at the mercy of male dominance society. keeping in shape, looking out for boyfriend, jealosy for her girlfriend who has a better b.f., Lack of support from parents for finding a mate etc. just add to problems.
It all depends what kind of problems you want to have eastern or western, problems will be there.
MALES ARE DOMINAT ALL OVER THE WORLD. THEY WILL REMAIN DOMINANT. Admit this fact.
Every culture promotes male dominance at the end of day. Its an illusion that a woman can live by herself or do everything all by herself. Men on the other hand do need women but in many aspects they have upper hand.
How many women can change the tire of a mini truck? Just kidding. But even in this joke there is something to think about. How many women can actually travel long distances without a man?
OK the ‘just friend’ concept or cousin concept is thrown.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS MAN AND WOMAN BEING JUST FRIEND! Platonic relationship is just a hoax. NOWHERE in the world that exists.
If woman is pure in her thinking, believe me man will NOT have pure thinking! Its the nature of the ‘business’ and nothing wrong in accepting it.
Same is cousin thought. When it will be considered allowed to advance the relation, it will be advanced and chance of intermingling will be high.
So thats why islam prohibits woman being alone or with non-mahram at hajj.
Once the person is outside his/her house its not ‘personal’ anymore. Even many acts are not considered personal despite the person stays at home!
NOW the question is what should be Pakistani response to the double standard against Pakistan in the world just because it has word Islam attached to it?
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
^ Phewwwwwwww !!!!!
You took a load outta my nerves......... Thanks Bhai.
Keeping control on one's ownself is hell of a difficult job, particularly discussing the sensitive issues.........
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
Man this phrase is cracking me up 
. it is true. Once we deflated the tire of our class fellow (in lahore in my college) and she had to call the gatekeeper to change the tire for 10 rupees… and you talk about truck and even that A MINI TRUCK
You talk about travelling !!! I say they NEED men to keep praising them without which they feel desperate… I guarantee you 100%, they cannot live without feeling “Wanted and needed” 
And they talk about superiority/inferiority … they never tell the women secrets…I came to know from one of my class fellow that the girls talk 90% of the times “boys”
How ironic, hain na Deedawar bhai 
Lets get back to the topic. Yeah, I think Pakistan would have to adopt a clear cut stance regarding Islam. Either follow it completely or reject it completely. I can talk about it more as necessary…
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
LOL…Good one. Now women will think we are male shovenist. But truth women know too. Just do not want to accept.
yes, Pakistan needs better strategy. how about staying in middle ground but with more stronger emphasis on basic values such as
honesty, removal of bribery, curruption, promotion of higher education, research and off course freedom of worshiping?
We know the financial situation is strong today but need sustained efforts to keep it this way.
Double standard? So what?
Keep doing what is best for the nation at large and ignore the evil propaganda. get a strong journalism which upholds moral and religeous values. Discourage (Not kill, or imprison) the people who are just bad mouth. Lock up the traitors at once.
Good enough?
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
When you say this, I interpret it as “Social reform”
Here I disaggree a little bit. I don’t think Pakistan is trong or economically stable. In my opinion, the economic presperity in Pakistan must be reflected as “improvement in the life os an average Pakistani”. Doesn’t matter what happens to the foreign reserve of pakistan, the state of the common man is deteriorating and even the basic necessities of life are not available to people.
So I think we need Economical reform too…
Now this means Political reform. Right?
So this raises a question what kind of politico-socio-economic reform reform?
And I think the best reform is the one of rule the people with the laws of the creator. We must understand that Islam is a DEEN, not merely a religion… I think the problem lies here…
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
…sounds a bit patronizing…deep down, I think it’s just that there is this embeded hostility we develop growing up in the west. This isn’t about maturity…I mean, joking about a sensitive topic for some would be considered a sign of immaturity, no?
Let’s face it, only an idiot would think that Pakistan DOESN"T have problems with women issues…there are people who treat women less than animals there…where I draw the line is when people use such facts to (even unintentionally) blanket condemn the whole place, or even other aspects of the culture which are quite harmless when we really, really think about it.
Consider the Hadood ordinances…they’re broken and everyone knows it…but I can’t stand it when people stand up and say “get rid of them”, rather than “fix them”. Western law was “broken” at one point too, but their route wasn’t one of abandoning it wholesale…why is that expected of us? What’s with these double standards?
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
What I meant in my earlier post is to continue for betterment and keep looking for different problems to fix one by one.
There are problems in Pakistan like in any other country. We just have to steadily continue to change silly laws and make laws based on what Islam has provided us. Justice for all.
Without having a revolution, piece by piece implementations my be a better option than changing everything overnight.
Women issue is serious but its not very different in other places. Domestic violence is still not so uncommon in developed countries.
My point is double standard against Pakistan and not that its all good to have problems and not do anything about it.