Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
hey im even fine with the fact that you agree that this is cultural…not religious…
yes the west does it too… they tell women how to dress thru fashion mags n all… but they dont jail burqa clad women either or those that do not comply with the latest fashions. they give a “choice” they dont use the “danda”. peer pressure is there too like every society but i am arguing on the level of state and govt interference where non compliance is treated like a crime.
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
They can in Iran…and in every other Gulf state…there are women who drive to JI “sister’s get-togethers” in Pakistan…
Saudi Arabia was a VERY traditional culture as late as the 1960’s…I mean, camels were the preferred mode of transportation.
No doubt, the peculiar laws they have in this regard have a lot to do with the hyper-modernization they went through during the 80’s…
Honestly, because it’s part of the tradition. Let’s be honest…politics aside, what is so bad about this in particular? Be VERY honest: if some westerner didn’t put the idea in your head that it’s IS unfair, would you have contemplated that it was?
This is what I’m talking about. What is so offensive about saying that you should be accompanied by your husband or brother or father, or uncle to the Hajj? I mean, I could see the problem if it was some arbitrary male off the street…but come on…this is your FAMILY. This is what I’m talking about…some Westerners even want to take something as innocent as this and make it sound BAD.
I mean, the way I look at it it’s an HONOUR for me to take my sister or mother to the Hajj…why should I have shame in it? Because it violates a westerner’s notion of individuality? Of equality? I happen to think this is a beautiful asymmetry…
The reason may be a bit archiac as the responsiblity for the security of citizens rests with the state now days. Historically this wasn’t so…and the road to anwhere was very dangerous…especially for women.
I recall in University we had a program where student union people would escort women to their cars…is that offensive to you?
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
[QUOTE]
yes the west does it too... they tell women how to dress thru fashion mags n all.... but they dont jail burqa clad women either or those that do not comply with the latest fashions. they give a "choice" they dont use the "danda".
[/QUOTE]
No, but they do kick Hijabis out of school....and if one is guilty of public nudity they'll be jailed. This reduced down to Burqa vs revealing clothes, or revealing clothes vs nudity. In the end....not much different.
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
and muslims didnt protest against it?
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
dude lets not blow it outta context…when did i say it should be a shame for a man totake his mom/daugther/sis for hajj? i asked why it is a RULE that a woman must take a mehram with her.
and yes it has nothing to do with the wicked west telling me it is unfair.
NOBODY has a problem if a woman WANTS to go with a mehram.
but there is a problem when u tell she cant go without one.
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
Fat load of good that got them. In fact, if anything, the rest of the nation turned the dialog to “look at all these fanatics among us! We got a problem”. There was no respecting this opposing point of view…if anything, it was used to alienate the community more.
Sad to say, Muslims would have been better off staying mum.
And no matter the protests, in the end the Hijabis were de-Hijabed…
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
My point is, we’re influenced by our enviornment, and we (that is you and I) pick up their bigotry and turn it into self-hate. I’ve just came around and started questioning ALL my attitudes towards the montherlands. Darn right there are problems, but sometimes I think these crtiques are just too much. That’s the angle I’m taking.
Now consider if there was a RULE that you had to greet your parents every morning…is it really worth agitating against this rule? I mean, would you admit that historically it was obvious as to why it existed…so, we’re a bit slow in changing. Heck…in this particular rule, do we want to change it at all?
So there’s a rule…so what?
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
Pakistan as an Islamic country ??? tht’s far frm truee .. but yea other countries do consider Pakistan as an Islamic state! … KJ’s opinion on tht is, now tht other countries are sayin tht Pakistan is an Islamic state, they should might as well ACT on it … 'agar ilzam liga diya hai tool, jurm bhi kar hi lo"
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
Shweetdreamz
You seem not to have read my responses carefully. I have given very logical reasons for everything. If you had read them carefully you wouldn't have had asked the same thing over and over again.
You seem to totally exclude and reject ANY intervention of religion in your actions and thoughts. Go ahead. I know from where does it stem from.....
Besides, the response of picacio are also kind of reckoning for you, if you dare to think and open your mind.
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
i have read your responses carefully. now please read mine and u just might see the logic in them too…
or u might not…i know where such an attitude stems from.
and piccoico did not really satisfy my query. he is just giving me an us vs them logic.
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
Which query? Why the rule? I did give you an answer: it’s origins are historic and quite rational. Are they archaic? Maybe…but then, you were using it as an example of something “bad” going on in SA…I question the very premise of why it should be considered a bad thing in the first place.
Dismissing my counter-questions as an us vs them logic is a bit much…let’s face it, our surroundings have had a deep impact on our psycology and world view. Why is that not open to question?
So, there’s a rule in place…what’s so bad about it? I mean, forget the male family-member escort stuff, let’s consider the dress code. Men are supposed to be wearing a white sheet, and women simple clothing with a head covering. That is a RULE as well…you can’t do Hajj unless dressed a certain way…now since the rule applies equally to both genders (i.e. some rule is in place for both, although the manner of dress is different), you never see a hue and cry about it…
Let’s face it…this isn’t about a rule in place, but it’s a rule that offends the western sensibility of gender equity. That’s what we’ve inherited from our environment.
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
^ No I do not think so you have read them carefully. Because your response only takes into consideration "Personal choice"............
Whereas mine takes into consideration the intervention of "religon" and other factors into account before saying anything and I firmly believe yes, religon and other factrs are to be considered in our "Choice" and "opinions".....
Reading your response I have understood that you have had your intellectual development in a society that holds non-Islamic values and had non-Islamic system. So naturally, you'd find it hard to believe any fact that is not in accordance with the western views.
Now the problem is here. You are trying to understand something Islamic with an orientation that is un-Islamic and that is the reason why problem arises. You are trying to fit a circle in a rectangle. Which in my understanding, not possible.....
That is why I have decided not to say anything more.
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
no its about a rule that offends me.
and wearing a certain color of sheet is really not as offending to me as the rule of a woman not being able to do hajj without a mehram
TRY to understand the difference. One of the rules is just telling u what color to wear and the other is hindering a woman to perform hajj on her own without any solid logic or reason.
Lahore981 - u can believe anything about my upbringing i am not going to discuss that with you either. but it is also a fact that as per your views , choice really has no place…
THATS exactly why i wish pakistan is never 100% islamic. no freedom of choice as you just proved.
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
Actually, if anything it allows flexibility as a women is excused from Hajj if she can’t go…actually, in many schools of thought she can go in the company of trusted women…
I think the reasoning behind the rule was quite solid…
Anyway, I think we’re going in circles a bit now. Either it’s okay for a government to establish rules or not…as I said, it’s not that the rule is in place, but the particular rule in place. I understood your posistion to be that your problem wasn’t so much with the requirement of maherem insomuch as that it was enforced.
In your opinion, is there a “logical” reason for the particular dress code during Hajj…just curious…
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
Ever think of questioning THAT influence?
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
THAT influence on what? religion?
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
On your motivations for questioning traditions…
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
This thing has been going very polite lets good keep it that way.
Shweety,
"hindering a woman to perform hajj on her own without any solid logic or reason" its hard for me to understand what logical reasoning are we expecting from Allah. The whole argument stems from the assumption that the rules of the religion are based on logic, which they are not.