Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
How about a country with Sharia as supreme law?
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
There are none that actually apply Shariah as supreme law. Shariah is not just a code of law, it's a politico-economic system and no country today applies it in its entirety.
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
because none of “lawmakers” are really interested in it (for selfish reasons).
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
Not because it has been proven to fail then, right?
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
yes
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
Well based on the secular laws of pakistan you need one thing only money!
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
Many questions have been raised. What I think is that Islam and muslim countires will ALWYAS be looked at mockingly no matter how 'progressive' and 'modern' they would be.
Thats a bitter fact. Many would accept this fact in their heart but would deny on record.
Next, I liked the post by AK47 earlier where he mentioned about Bosnians slaghtered infront of the whole world to watch, muslims and non-muslims alike. Muslim countries were handicapped for various reasons but those who were 'free' kept it happening for other 'various' reasons until almost the last minute. No complain though as afterall mslims also watched. This happened despite we had germans brutal work in the world and it was in the 90's not in the 40's.
Coming to Pakistan, how it relates, as it has been pointed out, No matter what Pakistan will do to make international community 'happy', it will ALWAYS be condemn being associated to 'Islam'.
Example: if the ruler is NOT pro-islamic, Pakistan will be condemn due to the public being against the Govt. and pressure will be put on the Govt. to DO MORE to crack down on ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALISTS i.e. TERRORISTS!
if the country's ruler is Pro-Islamic then pressure will be put on the Govt. to DO MORE to give MORE FREEDOM to the OPPRESSED population and news of so called freedom seekers and their views will be broadcast everywhere. Still if no result, then we can expect anything.
So, What I wanted to have comments on what should be the strategy??
Musharraf-like ruler or someone else with different approach? Or something else???
BTW: Someone already mentioned the word 'dictator' or to make a mockery of this term.
Some say,
"Dictator is someone who does not listen to the master. Dictator is an Ally when he does the opposite".
How about: "A toy is good only till the battery lasts".
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
Well, then do you believe in what Islam says? Are you a Muslim? Such words are another way of saying, “We don’t want Islam”
When Quran prescribes “Hijab” for men and women, who are we to obviate it?
What do you want Shweetdreemz? With whom else you wanna go out? Besides, I know Muslim women can go out if nneded without a mahram (With proper protocol). Yes if someone wants to go out with Boyfriend/girlfriend, I am sorry, not ticket in Islam for that.
As far as I know there is no restriction on driving of women in Islam…
TV shows, Films OR packages of vulgarity? Jonoon concert, hum, do you know what kind of “Harqaats” people do in these concerts. People aren’t even wearing full clothes. Boys and girls doing “boondi” and God frbid all sorts of Un-Islamic things are done in such gatherings. Is that what we like? Indecent and indignified society and social values???
What else Shweetdreamz? 
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
Right.
Nationalism breaks unity based on Islamic brotherhood… creates differences and divided people…
I agree with you. This is because there are elements in Pakistan that they are afraid of, elements who know Islam in its true spirit…
We need to revolutionize everything in Pakistan or I fear, it will suffer badly.
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
Yeah, but you wouldn’t be subjected to 300lb sluts wearing tube tops on a hot summers day, making them sweat and so pretty much rendering whatever modesty their shirt provides to a flabulistic jiggle parade…eeeehhhhggghhh…
In any case, Iran proves all that crap wrong anyway…there are differing kinds of “Islamic states”…just because the Taliban had a particular version doesn’t mean the rest of us need to abandon at least SOME vision of one…
Thank GOD pakistan isn’t 100% secular…
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
Modesty was once a virtue in 'modern' societies too. Till 50's last millenium, showing legs was considered bad in many west countries.
Modesty is also in christianity and other religeons.
Nuns also wear a 'Burqa' . I wish i can post two pictures of a Pakistani woman in Burqa and a nun in her attire side by side but I am sure people can imagine that themselves.
Amish people have beard not too far off from muslim beards.
Ther are not called 'weirdo' by anyone..wonder why?
Virginity is still considered good everywhere. (many call it being weird and the person is psycho, looser or whatever!).
Anyway billboards are now can be seen in western highways promoting virginity again (You must wait till you get married) ...Wonder why!
Do we want 13 years old girl carrying a bas*rd child? Well I sound weird by saying 'bas*rd' since its not even considered so bad afterall.
You call someone bas****d and that person might say....maybe, so what's your point? Did you want to say something? :)
What I am trying to say is the double standard even in some very basic and otherwise 'good social issues'.
Anything related to Islam is seen differently than if its not. You can promote anything but just don't say its in Islam!
I know the question would be why........ and answer will be given ......................since taliban did what they did. Very pathetic logic in many muslims view.
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
guys dont freak out please! thats just my point of view....i shudder to imagine a world like that and thats just how i c it.
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
can women drive in saudi arabia? why are they not allowed to drive?
why arent women allowed to go for hajj without a mehram?
and hijab, just like all other facets of religion should be an individual’s choice in my opinion. no State should enforce it. and justifying stuff like rape by saying that it happened to her BECAUSE she didnt wear hijab is also trying to enforce hijab on women…
the thing is that islam is entwined with politics…that is all i have a problem with. why not leave it to an individual? is pakistan going to represent itself to allah or is it going to be each individual? furthermore, are you going to be punished for not enforcing islamic laws? (by enforcing i mean punishing those that do not comply with islamic laws) just wanna know what you think about this…suppose someone doesnt comply with islamic laws and you advised them to the RIGHT path a few times…they are also a sane adult…do u think u will be punished for not killing/punishing that individual for his non-compliance?
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
Its good to have a point of view but it is even important to "check" what we think or what opinion we hold is "right". It is important to reality test it to evaluate it against different criteria.
And it is even more important to form an opinion after getting necessary background and information about any issue. There can be many sources of inspiration for us but not all can be right.
The people who used to hold an opinion in the past that the earth is FLAT and that the sun revolves around earth were later proved wrong because their opinion was not based on any reasonable grounds or were not realisticaly correct.
I hope I make sense......
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
well again thats a personal view isnt it…there IS demand for big women wearing skimpy clothes lol…
ok tell me this, if at this very moment…all the women in pakistan…or even a majority of them…wished to throw off their modest shalwar kamiz and dress in tube tops and shorts from this day on, can the state do anything to prosecute them? is there any such law? please enlighten me if there is…
so if they wanted to they could…is that correct? but you see they dont…even though there is no state enforced law stopping them.
even in the west all women do not dress in slutty clothes…its a matter of personal choice and for some them it has to do with religion … so yes you can have a state “promoting” or in favor of a certain religion but enforcing it with a danda is what i have a problem with…
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
SW, I see a problem in the way you view different things. Like you can see, I have written, “As far as I know there are no restrictions on driving of women IN ISLAM”
And look what you have written in reply to that. You have referred it to Saudi Arabia.
Thats what it is. We have to look at what Islam says, not what is practiced in the name of Islam in different countries because it may be right, it may be wrong. So we need to know what is right… and to do that, we would have to go back to Quran and open it to see what does it say about this particular issue rather than simply assuming what Saudi Arabia is doing. Right? Do you agree?
What I don’t understand is that why you are totally ignoring many aspects and looking at one aspect of it that you consider in your daily life. Haj is not an ordinary ocassion. It is an occasion where many “Halaal” things become “Haraam”. The pilgrims are to remain under a state of “extra” caution and alertness. Men and women have to be in a state of spiritual and mental clarity and peace. There is a protocol that has to be followed for Haj, just like “Wudu” for Namaz…And everybody has to follow that.
Imagine yourself in that situation? Can you survive on your own? Be raelistic. You don’t know anyone there and you want to perfom Haj?
OR
Whom else besides Mahram you would wanna go out for Haj? A boyfriend? Isn’t it ironic SW. We are want to perform Hajj, an “Islamic Ibadah” and we are forgetting here that Islam does not recognize any fifth relation of a woman with a man besides a wife, sister, daughter and/or mother? So the need for a Mahram is alread justified here. Right?
Do I make sense?
Hate to say that but this is a western concept of “Unlimited freedom” what they call democracy.
Hijab first of all, is ordered for men and women both, if you don’t know it before.
Second, Hijab deals with the “Collective” life of a society MORE than it deals with the individual life of a person.
Third, when something deals with the colloective life or a society, leaving it upto an individual 's choice can devastate the whole society. Let me give you an example. Marriage is a way to maintian social integrity of a society. If left on the indiviual choice, people wouldn’t bother to marry because they will not be willing to take the responsibility associated with marriage.
Similarly, if hijab left on an individuals own choice, I can guarantee you (Use your common sense here) imagine if 100 women are roaming around with tight fitted jeans and a tight shirt with the belly button visible, I am sure there will be 1000 men running after them, right? And what would happen next, you can imagine.
Fourth but not the last, laws and rules are made to be enforced and implemented. They are not left to individual choice. For example. On the freeways, it is posted “Speed limit 70 mph”. If it is left on the individula choice of the driver, who is gonna follow it? I guess none. And why do you see so many policemen on the highways catching people overspeeding and driving after drinking?
I think same applies to the Hijab Laws of Islam.
When we look at a system and talk about it, there are responsibilites of an Islamic state which are divided and allocated at its various levels. That have to be followed in any way because in an islamic state, it is it’s responsibility to “implement the laws ordered by Allah by acting his representative on earth”… And this has been clearly said in Quran. Any doubts about it?
PS. I usually wouldn’t have bothered to reply to your response but I have because I consider you a sensible individual, as I have noticed it many times in GS.
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
A personal point of view sure, but also a communal one. This is the thing, societies as a whole have values too…in the West, they’ve decidd to put emphasis on choice, no matter how extreme. In Muslim socities, the empahsis is that one’s choice stops, or should stop, where the public requirements of Islam begin to be trampled on.
Yeah, there are indecency laws…although in a country like Pakistan one only has to bribe their way out of it…or be of a certain class to be immune from the law.
I’ve noticed that there is an interplay between laws and social values. If laws side-step religious values (as a matter of policy), then the influnece these have on society begins to take charge…then, rather than a communal value, these things become simply and merely individual values…and become uninforcable. Thus, if a community wished to actually enforce a dress code, the secular laws would step in and FORBID that kind of thing, thereby siding with those who want to be immodest with respect to a population’s desires.
I think it’s clear now wathcing the progress of “freedom” in the West that it is in fact laws and the media which influence people…they do NOT reflect the views of the people. Both these things control and influence.
Inspite of the libertarian gab, I think if one want’s to preserve their own culture, they have to fight for it and not abdicate their culture to those in the media who simply want to reduce things to the basest instincts (sex, violence, and everything contrarian). Of course, censorship is not enough…we actually need alternatives…
I used to think this was strictly a matter of choice…not any more. If it were, then why would middle eastern countries and other Western countries try to regulate how Muslim women dress (either way…Iran does it but so does Turkey and Algeria in the opposite way).
Yes, there is something romantic about an individual finding their spirituality and sticking with it…but I also think it’s a right for parents to raise their child in a Muslim society according to Muslim customs…WITHOUT external influences the parent wouldn’t approve of.
This isn’t always possible…but without it we simply face another form of imperalism.
This whole freedom of choice thing is just rhetoric when applied to non-Muslim socitey, IMHO. I never used to think so, but to see how agressivly and arrogantly the Westerners push it…I know that it’s more than that with respect to foreign cultures. It’s about dominance, and destroying aspects of other cultures they don’t like.
Every state does it to some degree. Neither male nor female can walk around nude, for example…at least in most Western countries…YET.
If the state is in fact representing the views of society on this matter, then certainly they have every right to use that danda…it’s their job. What’s more, the society as a whole has every right to use peer pressure and what not to influence people to conform on these nominal issues. Every society does it.
Re: Pakistan as Muslim country
because saudia arabia practices islam. I know the whole argument of “it is the people that are bad…not the religion” but for our argument, we have the examples of various states (such as saudi arabia and iran) as examples of states where islamic laws are implemented. and judging by how “impressed” pakis are with arabs…i believe that if pakistan is to become an islamic state we will most definitely follow in their footsteps…
the point is again…whether a woman can survive on her own or not is a personal problem…it shouldnt be a rule of religion that you MUST take a mehram with you. it can be stated as a precautionary step every woman considering hajj should take but why it remains a RULE kind of reflects that a single woman has no right to perform hajj on her own…kind of pushes me towards the “no female clerics or prayer imams” issue which i want to steer clear of.
bhai jaan u really need to stop referring to a boyfriend in reply to each post. there really are other relationships (such as just friends, cousins etc) existing out there aside from being a man’s wife, sis, daughter, mother. you make it sound like its a jungle out there in mecca/medina and ever woman is bound to be raped! she is going for an islamic ibadat and there should be nothing safer than that destination for her. she should not feel the need to have a man next to her to protect her when she visits God’s house and other holy sites.
hate to say but democracy does not = unlimited freedom. it is govt by the people. and neither is it a concept of western origin.
how so? please explain? hijab to me is a personal choice again.
i DO agree that if a man sees women parading in slutty clothes his eyes will stray but then again sluts/prostitutes have existed in every time and society and even with hijabis around a man who wants to sleep around will do it no matter what.
huh? marriage IS left to the individual in every society…however in places like pakistan guys have more freedom to decide when and whether to get married than women. in the wicked west for example women and men have a choice on whether to get married or not. they dont have their parents pushing them. so WHY do these people get married? as per your logic they should remain single and party their whole lives…
these are made to avoid accidents and to save lives. how does that apply to hijab? does hijab guarantee that a woman wont be raped?killed for honor?
and what about the fact that representatives’ own interests usually come first? ill use saudi arabia (my fav 
) as an example again! wahabi driven logic hates all things western but on a political level they kiss america’s butt for the $$$.