"Pak Studies" was taught in a very very biased way.

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
61

Picard,

  1. As to bias in Indian books over the years, I'm yet to see an evidence of pre-BJP Indian textbooks saying something even remotely equivalent to the anti-nonMuslim stuff in your syllabus.

  2. From the beginning, Indian text books talk of Pakistan and partition as a betrayal. I agree that Pakistanis would beg to differ. That is a point of opinion, not fact. I have absolutely no problem with your books saying that Pakistan movement was started because many Muslim leaders before 1947 were afraid of Hindu domination. Heck, I don't begrudge the creation of Pakistan.

  3. But our books in India talk of the partition as a great tragedy, where both sides killed people. Your books just blatantly lie about it - saying that only Hindus and Sikhs killed Muslims while Muslims were gracious to Sikhs and Hindus. Can you think of a bigger lie?

  4. What Indian textbooks also do not do is this demonization of non-Hindus, like your books do to non-Muslims, especially Hindus. They are critical of the partition and the Muslim league, bit do not say that all Pakistani Muslims are evil or some such tripe. For your part you can say that some Congress leaders (Hindus) were anti-Muslim, but why do you have to teach your kids - "Hinduism is a bad religion" or "All Hindus are evil"? Do even the worst Indian books do anything similar to that?

  5. As to NCERT, it is THE biggest curriculum provider in India. What you don't know is that even state boards follow its guidelines, but rename them as their own guidelines because adapting national guidelines means more money from Central govt. Now, there are many private schools that follow their own rules. Hinduism based schools will obviosuly be biased, just like your madrassas, but we should compare what is officially sponsored by the govt. As bad as the pakistan govt textbooks are, we know that a mjaority of Pak kids go to madrassas which are even worse.

  6. As to Pak govt and the madrassas, your government has done ZERO. The reform hasn't even begun, only hot air

  7. As to your final question:
    [quote]
    with the new books not having been published, Indian books are biased and teach hate to children in schools?
    [/quote]

Nope. I'll post the details in my next post.

62

[QUOTE]
was shown the Indian side of partition - history of partition as in why was it necessitated was never portrayed - the picture you got was Hindus were not at fault - only Muslims never wanted to stay..
but one thing I would like to mention - Jinnah was neither cursed or vilified in our textbooks...a factual reference that he was the prime minister of the newly created state of Pakistan - nothing else.

You obliterate the portions of history you dont want the next generation to discuss - thats fine - a bigger crime is to state the facts falsely.
[/QUOTE]

bhai bitter, thats the entire debate thats going on!!!!! whether facts were falsified or not. Also, slective history is just as much a source of bias as falsifying facts and ur approval on the matter isnt what is being endeavored for.

63

[QUOTE]
1. As to bias in Indian books over the years, I'm yet to see an evidence of pre-BJP Indian textbooks saying something even remotely equivalent to the anti-nonMuslim stuff in your syllabus.

[/QUOTE]

I think I've already made it clear I am not interested in ur opinion on equivalency or 'levels' of bias. You implicitly then agree that pre-BJP books DID have bias.

[QUOTE]
2. From the beginning, Indian text books talk of Pakistan and partition as a betrayal. I agree that Pakistanis would beg to differ. That is a point of opinion, not fact. I have absolutely no problem with your books saying that Pakistan movement was started because many Muslim leaders before 1947 were afraid of Hindu domination. Heck, I don't begrudge the creation of Pakistan.
[/QUOTE]

Again, u are not the center of the universe. We are not discussing what u have a problem with and what not, nor what ur highness begrudges and what not. We are talking about bias and hatred in books. And teaching children that a country's creationg was a betrayel is teaching hatred and contempt. I could also argue that most hindus were implicitly supporting colonial rule and although Hindus would beg to differ, its a matter of opinion not fact.
Points 3 and 4 are rhetoric and I dont know what u want in response.

[QUOTE]
5. As to NCERT, it is THE biggest curriculum provider in India. What you don't know is that even state boards follow its guidelines, but rename them as their own guidelines because adapting national guidelines means more money from Central govt. Now, there are many private schools that follow their own rules. Hinduism based schools will obviosuly be biased, just like your madrassas, but we should compare what is officially sponsored by the govt. As bad as the pakistan govt textbooks are, we know that a mjaority of Pak kids go to madrassas which are even worse.

[/QUOTE]

Similar to the RSS madrasas that are still operating in India? Also, regarding NCERT, I posted from a reference, so I dont know what else I can do in regards to ur statement on this topic.

[QUOTE]
6. As to Pak govt and the madrassas, your government has done ZERO. The reform hasn't even begun, only hot air

[/QUOTE]

Actually the reform started quite a while back. The government put out a revised curicula and offered monetary benefits to madrasa to adopt it.

[QUOTE]
7. As to your final question:

quote:

with the new books not having been published, Indian books are biased and teach hate to children in schools?

Nope. I'll post the details in my next post.

[/QUOTE]

I dont see what details u will post. U already been shown that inspite of ur leing the new books havent been printed. And u urself have admitted that the current books teach hate. I just asked u to state openly what u already admitted implicitly. But I have to hand it to, u even squirmed out of that.

64

Picard,

As to the current textbooks, here are some facts:

  1. The Congress government came to power this summer.

  2. One of their election planks was to reject the BJP goverment’s revision of the NCERT curriculum to make it biased towards a Hindu right-wing agenda.

  3. The new HRD minister fired BJP loyalists from NCERT and hired a respected educationist at the top to clean up the mess. But even before that, he announced that the BJP sponsored changes to textbooks will be removed - as early as a week after he swore in!

  4. Arjun Singh appointed a panel of historians to study the books and the changes brought under the BJP rule. The panel was appointed in on June 12 2004, mere weeks after the new govt took office.

  5. The Historians panel went to work quickly and presented their report on July 5, 2004. See Link to Report

  6. The report listed many specific biased or false or inaccurate items in the new text books with the lowest level of detail.

  7. The report found that - “The textbooks definitely show printing errors, inaccuracies and a strong bias in favour of one interpretation of the Hindu religion that challenges the coexistence over time of varied currents in India’s historical unity in diversity.” and recommended that “that the new books should be discontinued as prescribed textbooks.” and also that “new syllabi and books must be made available to students by early 2005.”

  8. The report also noted the dilemma that kids have alraedy began the school year with the biased books, so it said that the “Exact prescription of books for each class for this year may best be left to the self-discipline of teachers and principals themselves.”

  9. The NCERT and Central government immediately accepted the recommendations. It said in a statement -

  1. Basically the NCERT started printing unbiased books as soon as it got the report. That still leaves the question of what to do about this year.

  2. So the government sent a notice to ALL schools following NCERT syllabus - both state are central. Link to notice

The notice advises teachers on what to do about:

It ended up recommending that since the biased portions in the book have already been identified, for 2004-05, the teachers should point the kids to the old book for those sections rather than teaching them the biased version. For instance, it gives specific guidlelines for each biased item, such as - "The invasions of Mahmud of Ghazni (p.97-98) have been presented only in terms of religious motives leaving out the political dimension (see the ‘old’ book, p.25). " and it also points to omissions where the students can refer to the old book, such as “There are several glaring omissions. For instance, there is no reference to the historic Karachi session of the Indian National Congress (1931), the role of Hindu communal groups, or the contribution of Sir Sayyid Ahmed Khan as a reformer and educationist. Most of the social reformers are treated casually or omitted.”

As you can see, our govt, as soon as taking office did everything it could to immediately stop the biased version from being taught. That is why I was saying that India’s current teachings are not biased. It was a practical matter.

As to pre-BJP “biases,” let’s discuss that separately, but I’d like you to read my post here fully, with all the links and excerpts I have posted to tell me what your position is. I think that on the narrow topic of discussion of “Have the biases introduced in Indian government supplied textbooks by the BJP been corrected?” you should agree that the new govt moved as fast as humanly possible on that aspect and also that by next year, they’ll all be fixed for good.

Your thoughts?

65

u are debating on matters I never contested. You are giving justifications and defending against accusations I never made.

[QUOTE]
As you can see, our govt, as soon as taking office did everything it could to immediately stop the biased version from being taught. That is why I was saying that India's current teachings are not biased. It was a practical matter.

[/QUOTE]

Then u are wrong. Practically u urself admit that its impossible for whatever reasons to remove the current textbooks and replace them so soon. Why are u then squirming from admitting to stating that currently Indian students ARE being taught hate. I dont see what the dilemna here is. Indias current teachings ARE biased by ur own account, what u are trying to prove is that soon they will not be. But thats not what I asked.

66

**guys..

Let's get back to the topic of "Pak Studies" as taught in Pakistan and forget India for a moment (or longer) please.

P. S. Don't be surprised if posts discussing Indian curriculum are removed to keep the topic on track.**

67

Picard,

Since the moderator has asked to focus on “Pakistan Studies,” and the topic is whether it is biased or hateful, please tell me whether:

  1. You feel that “Pakistan Studies” as a subject in your curriculum is a good thing?

  2. How do you feel about a group of experts from Pakistan pointing out with specific examples as to how Pakistan Studies, along with two other compulsory subject is used to (I quote) propagate the views:
    i. that Pakistan is for Muslims alone; ii. that Islamiat is to be forcibly taught to all the students, whatever their faith, including a compulsory reading of Qur’an;iii. that Ideology of Pakistan is to be internalized as faith, and hate be created against Hindus and India; iv and students are to be urged to take the path of Jehad and Shahadat.

Source - The subtle Subversion: A report on Curricula and Textbooks in Pakistan -. Page 10

Instead of referring to India, please tell us your view point:

Do you think that teaching such items are okay? If not what do you suggest should be done?

68

Dear picard, agent smith

Here is something that I do not understand in the setup of Pakistan. Kindly explain me reasons and logic for something strange from your so called history…

  1. You have named your missiles after Gorry and Gaznavi. Both were invaders against us. I mean against both of us. What is the logic in dedicating your arms to them?

  2. Since 12th century after Gorry and Gaznavi all Muslim invaders from central Asia attacked another Muslim ruler in India. How can you be so much proud of that Muslim period, when every new comer Muslim killed the earlier Muslim ruler and his family members?

  3. Aurangzeb, you have gallantry award on his name in armed forces. Aurangzeb dethroned his father, put him behind bars, killed his brother and captured power. Moreover his rule was totally authoritarian and all cracks in Mughal Empire appeared during his period. He is totally responsible for the downfall of the Mughal empire in India, that after him no Mughal ruler could bring back the old glory days.
    What massage you send to your people by glorifying your awards on Aurangzeb’ name?

  4. If you accepted the religion of the invaders how does it mean that you ruled over India in mid centuries? I have never seen any Indian Christian saying that he ruled over India for two centuries, Re British rule. What is the logic in your boasting of being a ruling class?

69

anjjan, the answer to all of your questions is that we identify ourselves moreso with Muslim histor in India. to make things easier for you to understand, the equivalent is naming your stuff with sanskrit names like prithvi, agni etc, that is foreign to non sanskrit speaking people, such as south indian christians. i dont think you have a missile named Julie Chandramouli.

Talvar, as I said before, every country has a specific worldview, so dont be surprised if that worldview filters into the education system. You have nativity plays here dont you?

Nevertheless, even so you do not have an argument at all. most of the fodder you have is traceable to one report (the link of which doesnt work!) and even that have so many mistakes of omission that it seems politically motivated.

For the ONLY two classes that have exams enforced by the government/education board, and thus effectively the only two classes where Pakistan studies and islamiat might not be optional, you can take civics instead of Islamiat and you do not learn the Quran in Urdu classes. If the only issue is that there arent non-muslim options in the education system of Pakistan, then you're really off.

Pakistan studies still is Muslim History in India, but given that thats what 98 percent of Pakistan's history actually is, I dont think even that is an issue.

70

[QUOTE]
guys..

Let's get back to the topic of "Pak Studies" as taught in Pakistan and forget India for a moment (or longer) please.

[/QUOTE]

The logic behind the above statement still eludes me. I dont see how it is off topic. The main people criticizing Pakistan's educationl curicula are Indians and common sense dictates no foreigner has a right to condemn someone if what he is criticizing exists in his own backyard. And pointing this out is certainly not off topic. What the mod must understand is that this is a Discussion board and not a question and answer page where the first person posts a question and the others reply to that question. Finally, assuming that it is off topic, I have never seen in any forum a mod "enforcing" this with threats to delete posts. I woud suggest Baba G nt only look at other thrads in this forum but also other forum because under his interpretation of staying on topic, all threads here and most other places are off topic.

71

is there any native born punjabis and sindhis you are proud of before islam or after islam why always bring turkish and arabs in pakistani
histroy?

72

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rvikz: *
is there any native born punjabis and sindhis you are proud of before islam or after islam why always bring turkish and arabs in pakistani
histroy?
[/QUOTE]

Yes, we are taught about the historic civilizations of Mohenjodaro and Taxila in Pakistan Studies.

We are also taught about Buddhism, and the attitude towards Buddhism is almost a very positive one. We are told of the good thing Buddhist rulers accomplished.

73

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by picard: *
The main people criticizing Pakistan's educationl curicula are Indians and common sense dictates no foreigner has a right to condemn someone if what he is criticizing exists in his own backyard.
[/quote]

This is a Pakistani board. We would like to keep the focus of discussions on Pakistan and issues surrounding it. No point giving 'air time' to our neighbors to the east; they can brainstorm on their problems on their own time (and bandwidth).

[quote]
What the mod must understand is that this is a Discussion board
[/quote]

If only more people understood this and not get all retaliatory when confronted with less than laudatory posts about them. We only request you counter criticism with something better than "Oh-Yeah-look-at-yourself" arguments.

Keep posting :)

74

[QUOTE]

quote:

What the mod must understand is that this is a Discussion board

If only more people understood this and not get all retaliatory when confronted with less than laudatory posts about them.
[/QUOTE]

Just because its retaliatory doesnt mean its not valid.

[QUOTE]
We only request you counter criticism with something better than "Oh-Yeah-look-at-yourself" arguments.

[/QUOTE]

If u were requesting I would respect that. But u arent requesting, u are enforcing the kind of arguments that are to be put forward and the kind that are not to be put forward. Thats kind of strecthing ur responsibility.

75

Dude,

It is quite natural for a 98% Islamic country to have curriculum geared towards Islam being the forefront.

It is quite normal also for a country to promote its independence/development and those leaders who contributed to it in a positive light.

But what is not normal is for a country whose government claims to be tolerant of other faiths while being Islamic, to promote books which say:

  1. That other releigions are bad by their definition

  2. Hindus are by birth evil and cunning people. They ill-treat women, they burn their widows, they like to live in dark places and be mean to others.

  3. Hindus will always be enemies of Muslims

  4. Only Hindus and Sikh killed Muslims during partition

  5. Pakistani minorities should be force fed Islam and the Quran irrespective of their choice

Now, wherever one is from, it is hard to say that the above are even defendable.

The SDPI report can be found at:

The Google cache is here

Now you may call the report biased, but do you say that they made up the quotes from the text books? The report was done by 30 academics and it gives thousands of references to the book and page level.

If you think it’s biased, all you have to do is get one or two of the textbooks they quote from and prove them wrong. I’m willing to put money on the table that the textbooks say exactly what they claim to say.

No matter what the context, can you defend a government published schoolbook that says those things? Wherever you live, how would you feel if the local goverment started publishing textbooks that defamed Muslims like your books do to non-Muslims? Will you defend the Dutch if they now publish textbooks that say - Muslims ill treat women or Muslims like to kill non-Muslims for flimsy reasons or Muslims are addicited to terrorism etc.?

How can you defend a government that teaches its kids the above things?

76

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *

Wherever you live, how would you feel if the local goverment started publishing textbooks that defamed Muslims like your books do to non-Muslims? Will you defend the Dutch if they now publish textbooks that say - Muslims ill treat women or Muslims like to kill non-Muslims for flimsy reasons or Muslims are addicited to terrorism etc.?

[/QUOTE]

No that would be the worst thing in the world, and would call for massive protests and flag burnings. No Muslims would tolerate that.

[quote]
How can you defend a government that teaches its kids the above things?
[/quote]

The answer is simple. No one actually learns anything. We just do "rattafication", basically memorize from notes and just write down the answers decorated with markers and color pencils. No one really cares what the books says anyways ;)

77

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by TeenDabbyWala: *

No that would be the worst thing in the world, and would call for massive protests and flag burnings. No Muslims would tolerate that.
[/quote]

Exactly!

One look at the WAF and you see Guppies making a hue and cry about Islam being maligned and defamed and yet some people here come and defend government textbooks teaching Pakistani kids to hate other religions.

Every country's textbooks have a bias. American books say that their founding fathers are the greatest men ever, despite some of them being involved in violence. They glorify Columbus etc. British books glorify colonialism.

But there's difference between bias towards your historical figures and freedom struggle and outright teaching of hatred. Saying Aurangzeb was a great guy is one thing, but saying that Hindus deserved killling because they are all bad by birth is beyond the pale.

78

^ you are so right. Who cares what is taught in our text books. What reallty matters is what is taught in our mosques. A mosque is a place we all almost visit everday, or friday atleast. There we are taught rightly that there is only ONE God worthy of worship and that He is to be worshiped directly. He The Almighty Allah is Supreme and there is nothing like Him. He does not reside in idols nor in images!

79

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *

, but saying that Hindus deserved killling because they are all bad by birth is beyond the pale.
[/QUOTE]

Now be realistic and thruthful..will you?!! No where are we taught to kill people just because they are not Muslims. Get over this inferioity complex of yours. Many Pakistanis have a lot of goodwill towards Hindus or any other religion.

80

what book says this?

firstly, I didnt say anything about context. what I said is that up until class 10 it is optional to follow these books. you CAN study from other books, and a lot of schools usually do because pakistani textbooks dont really have a good standard. its only in class 10-12 that government text books actually are enforced.

The points that you bring up:

  1. That other releigions are bad by their definition

show me where this is in the report?

  1. Hindus are by birth evil and cunning people. They ill-treat women, they burn their widows, they like to live in dark places and be mean to others.

The second bullet is not accurate. The snippets posted in the book are clearly in the context of Muslim arrival in India, and the statements are about Hindus in that age. AFAIK widows were burnt much more routinely in those days than today, and so the statement about mistreatment of women is true. I havent been able to find ‘by birth evil and cunning’. likewise living in dark places, the one rather funny line i found was this bit about hindu temples being small and dark. which clearly should be removed.

  1. Hindus will always be enemies of Muslims

This is unfortunate and should be removed.

  1. Only Hindus and Sikh killed Muslims during partition

I dont think this is beyond the limit as far as bias goes.

  1. Pakistani minorities should be force fed Islam and the Quran irrespective of their choice

That just isnt true. There are options out of it as I’ve mentioned before.

Now as far as Muslims protesting bias elsewhere, SDPI is a government initiatied NGO, so clearly we do believe in introspection for ourselves. Furthermore, the valid points in this report should and hopefully will be addressed.