lol. Actually many people here have agreed that yes many countries including Pakistan give a biased view of history. Now u and mr T there are getting all red in the face and not accepting that any other country, such as India, is also guilty. What u ineffect want to say is that Pakistan and only pakistan is guilty, and dont look anywhere else. If you were really sincere, you would say 'yes India's education system is also biased and move on'. Your squirming, apart from being very amusing, its also very pathetic.
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So you mean look around me, see that everyone is doing the wrong thing, and join in? Don't try to fix the problem or do the right thing? Is that what Islamiat taught you? I remember it teaching us to always do the right thing, even in the face of adversity. Surely, a Muslim can't do the wrong thing.
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So you mean look around me, see that everyone is doing the wrong thing, and join in? Don't try to fix the problem or do the right thing? Is that what Islamiat taught you? I remember it teaching us to always do the right thing, even in the face of adversity. Surely, a Muslim can't do the wrong thing.
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Actually I didnt say that. Where in any of my post am I 'supporting' any bias in ecucational studies? But instead of insulting ur inteligence again why dont u admit that yes Indian textbooks are just as biased and BOTH need to be fixed.
Actually I didnt say that. Where in any of my post am I 'supporting' any bias in ecucational studies? But instead of insulting ur inteligence again why dont u admit that yes Indian textbooks are just as biased and BOTH need to be fixed.
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Because I never said anything about "Indian Studies", I was talking about Pakistan Studies. I am not even concerned about India.
Actually u said that my link only had info on the BJP's short rule. It was u who made that statement about the reference I gave. Now I am asking you are u sure? You response shows insecurity and indicates ur not sure, but I want u to state it explicitly. It would make my replies more fun. I am not asking you to do any research. Just to confirm what u said. Are u so insecure that u cant even do that? :)
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Stop playing Freud and post specifics. You'll get a reply. Otherwise, you are just displaying your lack of auqaat to post facts. Ascribing motives to Hindus is one example of your education system. Hindus "squirm" etc. without facts shows lack of auqaat.
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U not only lack in thinking but also in in comprehension. The lines following ur smug 'nope' indicate that AT THE MOMENT indian books ARE biased. Whether they will 'speedily' be changed wasnt what I asked. Man u do love to squirm. but dont stop on my account, thats what makes this so much fun.
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They say when a person runs out of arguments, he resorts ot personal attacks. Let me spoonfeed some facts for you:
Indian textbooks were modified for a brief period. 2001 to 2004
The distortions in Indian books were not even close to the wholesale hate speech taught in Pakistani textbooks for decades
Indians themselves got angry at those who modified the textbooks and voted them out. Pakistanis on the other hand have no problems with teaching their kids to hate and kill other faith followers. After 33 years of hate, the textbooks are getting more bigoted and not less. Pakistanis on this board defend the hate speech, including yourself.
The Indian textbooks were changed by the new govt in 3 months. Pakistani textbooks are still their same hate filled selves.
Some like you lack the auqaat to post facts and start psychoanalyzing others who do.
The National Council of Educational Research and Training today formally launched the process of reviewing school curricula introduced during the National Democratic Alliance regime.
“We have decided to review the curriculum introduced in 2000. This is a routine review since a curriculum is due for review every five years,” NCERT director Krishna Kumar, who succeeded J.S. Rajput, told reporters.
“We expect to complete the review process by the summer of 2005,” Kumar said.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Talwar: *
......In Pakistan, all governments since 1971 have systematically sought to preach hate against non-Muslims, .....
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I wonder why Mr. Talwar completely ignores all the love shown by Pakistanis during the cricket series. Mr. Talwar instead laps up all the hatemongering $hite with gusto and then shows his slobbered face on the net.
Why Mr. Talwar why? Should I assume your Bihari roots are responsible for this one-eyed Mullahtic view of Pakistan?
Regarding the squirming: I think u’ve helped me out pretty well here in proving that. And I explained that all I am asking is for u to confirm what u said. Now what kind of facts do u want me to post for that? U are so damn insecure that u cant even confirm what u said. This reply again ‘squirms’ and wigles out of a direct question I asked u, to confirm what u said. With respect to ur fight for the hindus, I think the best think u can do for the poor chaps is to stop representing them. I’m sure thats what they are all praying.
None of ur facts contradict the simple fact that AT THE MOMENT both indian and pakistani books are biased. Ur auqat insults are quite amusing in the face of ur shameless display of squirming.
None of ur facts contradict the simple fact that AT THE MOMENT both indian and pakistani books are biased. Ur auqat insults are quite amusing in the face of ur shameless display of squirming. :)
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Your lack of ability to read amuses me.
At the moment, Indian textbooks are abck to old secular ways while Pakistani textbooks have stayed the same hate speaking ways for decades.
Read the above links which clearly say that the textbooks have been replaced with the old ones already!! The government replaced the books as soon as it was sworn in.
I know you have this problem where your eyes cannot see those links which disprove your claims, but be a man and read them. Or yet, ask some non-Pakistani to read it for you ;)
Here is a point blank question for you and let's see your ability to answer it without squirming.
Do you say that the old BJP books were ever spreading the same level of hate as your official books for the last 30 years? If so prove it with specific quotes.
Actually I didnt say that. Where in any of my post am I 'supporting' any bias in ecucational studies? But instead of insulting ur inteligence again why dont u admit that yes Indian textbooks are just as biased and BOTH need to be fixed.
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Wow. This IS squirming.
Picard is presented with overwhelming proof of his country's hate filled textbooks
Picard keeps quiet but brings up small biases in neighbor's books
Picard refuses to address the hate speech in his country's books.
This is like a man who has committed 30 years long murder campaign, pointing to his neighbor who assaulted a guy but changed his ways quickly and saying - we are both the same. But I'll not change.
really? I must have missed that. Here are the links I saw:
Student demanding change.
indicates that the governemnt ‘plans’ to change books.
The name indicates it I think.
Again, none show that the government has changed books already.
The so called unbiased book was presented to minister who said he WILL look at its feasibility.
Again showing the governemnts intent.
So I fail to see how u can say "the above links clearly say that the textbooks have been replaced with the old ones already!! "
Quite shameless of u to ignore my two questions and instead ask one of ur own. To answer it : I do not say that old books were ever spreading the same level of hate as my official books for the last 30 years since level of hate, my immature friend, can not be measure quantifiabley. I didnt go into a chem lab and pour both hates into test tubes and then compare their levels :rolleyes:
Though ur feeblke attempt is quite amusing.
It still amazes me that after three posts of me insulting u and ur squirmy wiggly nature, u still didnt answer my two point blank questions:
1- confirm what u said about my referenbce
2- At the moment both indian and pakistani books are biased.
Do you expect textbooks that have been printed already to be confiscated and reissued?
You are soundling like Clinton - “That depends on what your definition of “is” is” :rolleyes:
Now, as to your view on your own textbooks, can you tell us when your government is going to change them, since you agree that they are bad? We know for sure that by this time next year your govet will still be teaching hate while Indians successfully set aside a temporary blip.
What do you say about that?
As to quantifying hate → Do you say that an Indian textbook removing sections on Muslim rulers, deleting bad reference to caste system etc. is even in the same category of decades of page after page of “Hinduism is bad”, “Hindus are evil” , “Non-Muslims must learn the Quran” etc.
As to Indian textbooks, for the 2004-05 period, some schools are still using old text books. But for next year, clean and old text books are already published and ready to go. The clean up has been completed and it is only a matter of not removing textbooks mid-year, a practical issue.
Now answer my question above - do the textbooks compare? What is your country doing about teaching hate to kids sponsored by government? Please tell us what you propose to do?
Re: "Pak Studies" was taught in a very very biased way.
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*Originally posted by TeenDabbyWala: *
Pakistan Studies which was mandatory for all Metric and O'Level students, was taught in a really really biased manner. It basically covered the entire history of the subcontinent, going back to the Aryans invading Punjab.
1- u claimed that ur last set of links showed that books had already been changed. When I pointed out that they didnt u throw another link. This shows u make claims without any basis. Should we talk about auqat now?
2- This link does not say that the changedbooks have been pirnted, but just like the others it shows that they will be changed.
3- Since the new books havent been printed neither u nor I can say with any credence that they will be any less biased. All we have are claims and media reports.
Yes.
Once again ur so-late response in confirming a claim u urself made shows u make claims without any basis. Also u didnt say the articles were WRITTEN in bjp’s era in ur original claim. u said "This deals with the official NCERT, the agency that writes textbooks for Central board schools in India.
The new HRD minister Arjun Singh has fired everyone of the BJP appointees. All textbooks changed in the last 5 years will now be reviewed and brought back to the old."
In other word, u said all articles on that page have content pertaining ONLY to the bjp era. I ask u again, can u confirm that claim u urself made. And dont ask me for quotes, u really look dumb asking me to give quotes when all I am asking u is to confirm what u urself said!
’
as I’ve shown, u are woefully far from proving any of this bull.
As to my asking for quotes, it is my firm belief that the attempted saffronzation of Indian books started with the BJP govt in 1999-2000 (starting with school year in fall 2000), even though they had been talking about it for years when they were out of power. That is my view. If you have any proof otherwise, I'll be happy to review it. That should put to rest your squirmy attempts at diversion.
Your one sentence, when you equate Pakistan's 30 years of massive and pervasive hate material in text books with a few Indian textbooks's biases for a handful of years tells me doesn't even pass the laugh test.
Explain to me in plain English, how you can equate the two. Let's hear your reasons.
Now as to the Indian textbooks, will you be willing to apologize to me if I bring you the 2005 books with all BJP put in sections removed? Will you admit that you were wrong then?
In India, alteast the government acknowledged it within weeks of government changeover and ordered things changed.
What does it say about your country when for 30 plus years no government has called for change of textbooks when they are so clearly and so blatantly teaching hatred, bigotry, incitement to violence and all around malevolance? Pray tell me!
I have the consicence to say that I'm ashamed that the BJP govt changed Indian books to whatever extent they did but I'm proud that the new government is quickly setting back things in order, like they should be.
Do you have the guts to take a stand on your country's 30 year old hate books? Let's hear it.
If not it'll prove that you are the one who is being squirmy.
Why don't you also talk about the fact that no one is even trying to change the hate books in Pakistan? Let's hear about that as well!
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As to my asking for quotes, it is my firm belief that the attempted saffronzation of Indian books started with the BJP govt in 1999-2000 (starting with school year in fall 2000), even though they had been talking about it for years when they were out of power. That is my view. If you have any proof otherwise, I'll be happy to review it. That should put to rest your squirmy attempts at diversion.
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Man do u love to squirm. Look at what I asked u and now look at ur response. I didnt ask u when u think bjo safronization started. I asked u whether u can confirm ur claim that the reference I gave u relates to only the bjp's safronization and nothing else. U made the claim and I am having to breake my back to get u to confirm ur own statement coz now u are having cold feet. I have already in previous post proved how u make claims without basis. Its very amusing that in ur last post u didnt even address that issue. :)
Regarding the rest of ur post, it relates directly with u confirming what u said about the reference I gave u which u jufged without even reading and are now left to feel red faced. Here are te assumptions u made:
1- That I agree with you that only bjp was the cause of bias in textbooks.
2- Only NCERT books have bias.
3- The new books will be completely unbiased.
Now it was a simple matter of me asking u to either confirm ur statement or to apologize for making yet another baseless claim which u have made such a big deal that now it will be even more embarrassing for u.
What was taught to us was right. No need for my Pakistani brothers to be apologetic! The news and stories (cut and paste) which are being posted here are written by "enlightened" "modern" fools, and those who are against Pakistan's existence. So let them say what they want to. That will not change the reality of Pakistan.
I simply don’t understand what you are trying to ask. You posted a link. I perused it briefly and noted that the Indian side of it was largely against the BJP’s agenda to saffronize education. If I read it wrong, please point out the specifics. It is a link you posted. I cannot be expected to read it in full.
If not, please post what it is that you expect me to answer. You have successfully taken a thread topic and converted it to a debate on what I think of one link that you posted.
Still, what exactly is your question? Make a post with just your question to me. I’ll be happy to answer.
Now, to some of your specifics:
You don’t? Care to prove it then that pre-BJP textbooks in India were biased as well?
I posted links from Pakistani media and listed specific things, with page numbers in specific Pakistan govt released textbooks.
Can you do the same for Indian books? If not, your claim = LIES.
I need to see specifics on what pre-BJP books say that even come close to what your books say.
I never said this. In India, a vast majority of school kids, going to both private an public schools, use NCERT books or those that conform to its guidelines. We have a few “State Board” books for local languages etc but they are a small number.
You don’t agree? Please post facts, with page numbers and book names, like I did.
Now, I have made every attempt to address your questions. Why don’t you address the very pointed questions I asked you and which you have been cowering away from, instead of answering them like a man.
I’ll even make a statement. Regardless of how history is being taught in Pakistan, I condemn any attempt in India to teach historical untruths or biased versions promoting Hindu or caste agenda. I condemn it without qualifications.
Explain how you can equate the inaccuracies in Indian books to 30 years of hate in Pakistani books, forced imposition of Quran, denigration of other faiths, jihad promotion etc. in your books.
I made an unqualified condemnation of Indian books’ attempt to teach untruths about history. Do you have the guts to take a stand on your country’s 30 year old hate books? Let’s hear it.
Why don’t you also talk about the fact that no government is even trying to change the hate books in Pakistan? Let’s hear about that as well!
I addressed every one of your questions and have promised you to address the one that I asked for clarification from you.
Do you have the auqaat to address my pointed questions to you that I’ve asked you repeatedly only to find you ducking them ?
I take it that you are proud that your country teaches your kids that it is okay to shove Islam down the throats of every Pakistani non-Muslim kid, it’s okay to teach your kids that all Hindus are evil people etc.?
Right so u could have said ‘I am not sure’ a dozen posts ago. Its strange it to me a dozen posts for u to get over ur ego and finally admit that u didnt go over the whole page!
The article “Peace with the past by KRISHNA KUMAR” on that same page u said spoke only of BJP’s era is all about pre-bjp history taught to kids:
“As educated Indians, we have all been socialized to perceive the creation of Pakistan as an act of betrayal and narrowmindedness; and now, more than half a century after that act was accomplished, we are led to believe that Pakistan is a failed state”
Again, ur not being entirely accurate.
“Secondly, the National Council for Educational Research and Training (NCERT) textbooks are prescribed only in a small number of schools.”
“Just like the NCERT textbooks, these too not only distort and misrepresent or eliminate historical facts but also promote a communal conception of state and society.”
"The defeat of the BJP in the election of 2004 is not the end of communal ideology or the efforts to inculcate it in society. On the other hand, if the reports are true, communalisation through education is likely to intensify. The joint secretary-general of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, Shyam Gupta, recently stated that a project is on the anvil to reach out to 100,000 tribal villages through a four-point programme of education, health, economic progress and self-respect. "
“India’s new Minister for Human Resource Development, Arjun Singh, has initiated an NCERT textbook review. While this is overdue, a conference of State Education Ministers should also examine the content of books being taught in private schools that preach hatred or obscurantism.”
I am sure when u wrote the above u urself realized how foolish they look. U are asking me to post line numbers and references of books which havent even been published yet. Which reminds me, u conveniently brushed over u lieing in ur previous posts that the new books HAVE been published I’ll let it go though.
Great. S do I regarding Pakistan. That was never in debate.
I am equating 30 years of Pakistani bias with 30+ years of Indian bias. I went to public schools in Pakistan and I never saw Quran being imposed in urdu classes or whatever and dont know where the author got that from. As I said Islamiat isnt a compulsory subject. And regarding jihad, u are a non-muslim so I dont blame u for not knowing this: Jihad isnt only about physical struggle, and military jihad is about defending oneself. A good tip I can give u is to not be against Jihad but against how it is applied.
answered already.
The government has already fine tuned the madrasas. I believe u would agree to that. And the islamiat courses and also the pak studies syllabus are or already have been revised. But again the implicit assumption u’ve made is that the Indian governments changes will remove all bias from NCERT books. And lets not forget about non NCERT books.
U must be really proud of ur auqat. good for u.
Now, will u agree that AT THE MOMENT, with the new books not having been published, Indian books are biased and teach hate to children in schools?
you have made a joke out of a very serious and worthwhile topic...
actually history text books in Pakistan or India or anywhere else will serve as a propaganda tool..nothing new...
I was shown the Indian side of partition - history of partition as in why was it necessitated was never portrayed - the picture you got was Hindus were not at fault - only Muslims never wanted to stay..
but one thing I would like to mention - Jinnah was neither cursed or vilified in our textbooks...a factual reference that he was the prime minister of the newly created state of Pakistan - nothing else.
You obliterate the portions of history you dont want the next generation to discuss - thats fine - a bigger crime is to state the facts falsely.
And I explained that all I am asking is for u to confirm what u said. Now what kind of facts do u want me to post for that? U are so damn insecure that u cant even confirm what u said. This reply again ‘squirms’ and wigles out of a direct question I asked u, to confirm what u said. With respect to ur fight for the hindus, I think the best think u can do for the poor chaps is to stop representing them. I’m sure thats what they are all praying. 
I’ll let it go though.