Re: Out of Kargil
Different situation. Siachen was largely unoccupied and IA was proven right that after it takes it, PA cannot take it back by force. IA did it, did not deny it by blaming “mujahideen.”
In Kargil PA sent men to occupy 132 IA posts many of which were abutting a critical National Highway. They ought to have known that IA was going to do everything to take it back.
You cannot compare minor arty exchanges to an operation involving over 5,000 men.
Re: Out of Kargil
yeah, I think generals were ready for everything, but not for the US pressure.
Re: Out of Kargil
US pressure came in late June. But PA stopped resupply much earlier when supply bases were bombed by IAF. PA abandoned many forward posts in Mushkoh in the second week of June simply because the supplies dried up.
The PA Generals underestimated the Indian response ability as well as prospects of escalation.
Re: Out of Kargil
Bull ****… Your making lame excuses to defend your countries blatant violation of the accepted LOC. Siachen is way inside the LOC. I know the LOC never extended that far, but the whole place is miles inside the Pakistani side.
Just because PA couldnt take it back doesnt justify it.
Second.. YOUR SAYING THAT KARGIL WAS WORNG ONLY ONLYYYYY BECAUSE WE DENIED IT!!!
JUST BECAUSE WE COULDNT TAKE SIACHIN BACK DEOSNT MAKE IT RIGHT. SO IF WE HAD TAKEN RESPONSIBILITY YOU WOULD HAVE SUPPORTED IT???
JUST BECAUSE YOU COULD TAKE KARGIL BACK (QUESTIONABLY THOUGH) DOESNT MAKE KARGIL RIGHT!
Re: Out of Kargil
Supply bases muct have been in Indian occupied kashmir, not in Azad Kashmir… IAF could never make that far into our territory…
Re: Out of Kargil
I think you messed up your credibility with your Siachin BS. My conclusion is that you believe invasion is justified as long as the other side cant take back the lost territory. So, now all we have to do in Pak is take some territory and hold on to it...
Re: Out of Kargil
Calm down man.
With Kargil, both India and Pakistan have exchanged maps since 1972 which clearly delineate which peaks are on which side of LoC.
Siachen is clearly and was deliberately NOT delineated. The LoC ends where Siachen starts. India saw Pakistan printing maps showing Siachen as its own and so took action.
I do not support any military action to take any Pak controlled area today. India agreed where the LoC lies today, so it cannot attack for instance near the Neelum valley.
Re: Out of Kargil
The reason the LOC never extended that far was because we never thought you guys would invade there… It was a mutual understanding, but its clear now what Indian intentions were.
First look at the map… The LOC ends and but if it were to be extended, its clearly on our side. Second, Indian tactics on Siachin were dishonest and underhanded. They had no justification for invading Siachin. It only proves that your as dishonest as you claim we are.
We se Indians printing maps where IOC is a part of India, SO WE TOOK ACTION..
There you go..
Re: Out of Kargil
From what I undestand, Indis true intentions were to be closer to the Karakorum Highways to monito whatgoes on there.
Re: Out of Kargil
[QUOTE]
A total of nine meetings were held beween the senior military commanders of the two countries and their teams between 10 Aug 72 and 11 Dec 72, alternatively at Suchetgarh near Jammu, and Wagah near Amritsar. At each meeting the inputs of sub sectors were discussed, the sticky poins resolved and where necessary, a joint survey was ordered to ensure that nothing was left vague or uncertain. It is pertinent to add that there were some issues which had to be resolved by the Army Chiefs of India and Pakistan and for these both the meetings were held at Lahore in Nov and Dec 72 between Field Marshal Sam Manekshaw and General Tikka Khan. All issues were amicably resolved.
In the whole exercise two sets of maps each comprising of 27 maps were prepared. These marked maps were joined and 19 mosaics were prepared, thus clearly delineating the entire stretch of Line of Control running through 740 Km starting from Sangam and ending at Pt NJ-9842. Besides the maps, there were 19 Annexures consisting of 40 pages, giving the details of every feature, landmark and coordinates of the Line of Control. The delineated Line of Control was jointly prepared and signed by two senior military commanders, Lt Gen PS Bhagat and Lt Gen Hameed Khan. These documents were jointly signed and exchanged by the two senior military commanders on 11 Dec 72 at Suchetgarh.
[/QUOTE]
NJ-9842 is where the Saltoro ridge begins in Siachen. In retrospect, both sides should have agreed on where the line goes from there.
you cannot say that were it have been extended Siachen will be all on Pak side. The entire LoC delineation was based on following ridgelines and watersheds - prominent natural features. Extending that logic, if one were to follow the contour of Saltoro ridge, almost all of Siachen will be on the Indian side. Pakistan now says it wants a straight line.
Re: Out of Kargil
From what I undestand, Indis true intentions were to be closer to the Karakorum Highways to monitor what goes on there.
Re: Out of Kargil
The nderstanding was that no one would invade… Pakistanis were to see the Indian intentions for what they were.
Re: Out of Kargil
So since Indian maps show Kashmir as Indian Kashmir, should we invade IOK?
Re: Out of Kargil
By that logic, Pakistan should not have been printing maps saying the ridge is its own when both sides agreed not to claim in in 1972.
Kargil was agreed by Pakistan IN WRITING to be on the Indian side.
Re: Out of Kargil
India is not selling tours to Gilgit and Muzaffarabad is it? BTW, if you look at GoI issued maps of Kashmir, they always show 2 regions - occupied by China and Pak in dotted lines.
Re: Out of Kargil
face saving…? mind if i say the same for your blabbering? shed some light on why did Kargil come up in the very first place? India butchering unarmed civilians, India paying no heed to treaties, India occupying places by force, places it did not belong in! and of course the presence of shrewd leaders and some traitors as has always been throughout the world’s history. why do wars keep taking place? of course all reasonging sounds like murmuring to you. youre used to blabbering and blabbering alone…
Re: your theory on glaciers. how could i not know of the post abandoning phenomenon, but we could still learn more from India about it’s brilliant tactic. by the way, ask some soldier who’s been up there to tell you what the terrain is like up there, Siachin glacier is abot 20000ft above sea level and Kargil is abt 18000ft. the war as i said wasnt confined to one area in the belt and the indian claims of having abandoned bodies surely didnt cease in summer 1999.
Re: Out of Kargil
Well, I dont know what your getting at by the tourism remark. But if maps are enough reason to invade anothers territory why shouldnt we invade IOK, since Indian maps show IOK as a part of India?
Re: Out of Kargil
No body claimed to own anything.. Point is, it wasnt demarkated. It wasnt made clear where ownership lay.
Anyways, hypothetrical question. Going by your logic, If pakistan had invaded the demarketed part that lay closest to Indian side, the same way as India invaded Siachin would you support that>?
So if Pakistan were able to take Siachin and then moeved even farther east to take other parts which are not demarkated by the LOC, you would be ok with that?
Re: Out of Kargil
perhaps, they would have thought giving India a taste of its own medicine would mae it realize and think what it had been doing to those around…but nay! India didnt heed and instead retaliated in full force, because India never wants to understand what the problems and their roots are…
Re: Out of Kargil
Well Pakistan army was sponsoring a Japanese mountaineering team to climb the Saltoro area peaks. It was a PA map that claimed the entire region as Pakistan’s. That is what prompted the Indian move, which BTW was just days ahead of Pakistani attempt to get to the top and put people there.
The second part is a non-sequitur since I told you that Indian official state maps clearly show the LoC and LAC and who controls the other side.