Re: Out of Kargil
even if, Kargil belonged to India, the whole thing would still be a taste of India’s own medicine…
Re: Out of Kargil
You know Talwar, we have another trump card.. Remember Indias invasion of Hyderabad Deccan and Goa? ;)
Certainly no defense there...
Re: Out of Kargil
Exactly… 
Re: Out of Kargil
by the way guys, what does the Indian lobby want to establish here?
that Pakistan is evil, kashmiris kill themselves for nothing, Pakistani military, its generals and politicians are mad and India rocks!
so much for realistic disussion.
Re: Out of Kargil
0/4
;)
Re: Out of Kargil
Anything that IA has today will be defended. There is a reason the world reacted differently for Siachen and Kargil, think about it.
You also forget that PA tried to push India out of Siachen, many many times. But it gave up after a point. When Musharraf was a Brig, he was in charge of an SSG attempt to launch an operation from the so called Quaid post near Tabish. The operation failed and IA managed to retaliate and take the Quaid post as well.
Re: Out of Kargil
Same as Pakistan’s invasion and annexation of the princely state of Kalat.
http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/papa/pakistankalat1947.htm
You cannot have holes in your map.
Re: Out of Kargil
Come on.
This thread is about Kargil and what Pakistan got out of it. My contention is that the PA leadership, Musharraf especially, had acted irresponsibly. 6 years after Kargil, Musharraf agreed to more concessions than whatever Nawaz Sharif made in 1998 in the Lahore process.
Re: Out of Kargil
the brilliance of Indian military leadership, their inter serivces and mitary-govt liason perfection and more, from the very source they so love;
http://www.satribune.com/archives/jun13_19_04/P1_josy.htm
Indian Air Force, Army Exchange Blows Over Kargil Failure, Killings
By Josy Joseph
NEW DELHI: Rubbishing the Indian Army’s claims that delayed air strikes led to higher casualties in Kargil, the man who was in charge of air operations during the 1999 conflict has said the blame lies with the army’s poor leadership.
Dismissing the findings of an army report that came to light recently, retired Air Marshal Vinod Patney, the air officer commanding-in-chief of the Delhi-based Western Air Command during the Kargil war, said one must probe further why the report has been leaked now.
Air Marshal Patney, one of the most decorated fighter pilots in the Indian Air Force’s history, was awarded the Sarvottam Yudh Seva Medal for spearheading air attacks during the Kargil war. He was also a member of the last National Security Advisory Board.
The six-volume report by the Directorate of Military Operations and Army Training Command was completed a couple of years after the Kargil conflict, but its contents had remained a secret.
According to details available now, the report says delays in starting air strikes in Kargil led to the large number of army casualties.
It also speaks of lack of coordination with air force, poor air space management over the battlefield and the vulnerability of communication links.
“By now the whole country and international community knows that the Indian armed forces, particularly the army, was very poor (in tactical planning). Instead of keeping quiet, they (the army) want to point fingers at others,” Air Marshal Patney told rediff.com
“There should have been better coordination. They find fault, but they did not consult us before completing the report. They not at all consulted us, not at all,” he said.
Raising serious questions about the leadership of then army chief General Ved Prakash Malik during the conflict, Air Marshal Patney said: “It was such poor leadership by sending men to their deaths. The tactical options (exercised by him) were militarily E grade, that is fail and worse.”
The air marshal said it must be investigated further why the report has been leaked now. On the face of it, the blame for delaying the air strikes is being laid at the door step of the last government. But there could be others gaining out of the entire exercise, he said.
The Kargil report has come as ammunition for the new government, facing criticism over the alleged criminality of some of its ministers.
The report has also come at a time when intense jockeying is underway between senior military officers to become the first chief of defence staff.
“During the Kargil Review Committee meetings, we pointed out that there was no problem in coordination and we all said we must have better intelligence gathering. The fact is if we were allowed to cross (the Line of Control) we would have done anything,” Air Marshal Patney said.
He said it is also not right to blame the last government for delaying air strikes. “We were ready from about May 6 for air operations. The political decision was required. The point is till quite a long time nobody actually knew how serious the problem was. If it was so serious, why would the army chief push off on a foreign tour?” the air marshal asked.
General Malik was on a tour of Poland till May 19. By then the Indian Army suffered heavy casualties on the Kargil peaks.
Air Marshal Patney said the army officially did not place a request for air strikes until after May 20 or so. “The case for air operations was put up to the government after Malik returned from the foreign trip and toured Srinagar and other areas. Under those circumstances the government asked for more details and that took three or four days. That is not a great amount of delay. The air strikes were cleared on May 25. The government didn’t dilly-dally. It was a clear intelligence failure,” he said.
“The other argument that army casualties could have been less had the air force began operations early is unfounded. Some 80 percent of their casualties were due to Pakistani artillery firing, not frontal attacks. The road from Zojilla to Leh was full of military convoys and were easy targets. Since they (the Pakistanis) had taken up positions at heights they were able to direct artillery with accuracy,” he added.
Air Marshal Patney said had the air force been allowed to cross the LoC “it would have been a different story.”
He revealed that during discussions on crossing the LoC, General Malik had opposed the idea. “Had we crossed, we would have dealt with their artillery, their supply lines etc,” Air Marshal Patney said.
He said the entire operation by the army lacked any tactical sense. “What they (the army) ought to have done was to hold on to the positions, take stock of the situation and ask air force to go out and hit their (Pakistani) artillery and supply lines, soften them out and then send the army on ground. That would have been correct militarily. But they wanted to charge, wanted quick results.” - Courtesy Rediff.com
So I’d say better not question the brilliance of Gen Pervez Musharraf and his top men in or without uniform.
Re: Out of Kargil
Haris,
India conducted a full inquiry, and punished the negligent army officers and other officials.
[quote]
brilliance of Gen Pervez Musharraf and his top men in or without uniform.
[/quote]
If he is so brilliant, why is he afraid of an open inquiry and have his subordinates explain the conflict?
I'm afraid all available evidence shows that Musharraf had done something without thinking through or making good plans. Not brilliant by any means.
Re: Out of Kargil
EXACTLY… So Kashmir is a hole in our MAP… Glad your seeing it our way…
Re: Out of Kargil
Well, the world is different today… What they supported then isnt what they will support today. Still question was WOULD YOU support it the same way you support India.
If you admit that Pakistan invading any part past Siachin is wrong then you have to admit that India was wrong in Invading Siachin… True?
Dont twist thing just answer the question…
Re: Out of Kargil
Its Indian Bull crap… Typical arrogant, self righteous bull they are always up too..
Re: Out of Kargil
Seem’s rather brilliant to me. I mean, even the most briliant strategies dont always work out. Even the most brilliant moves have their flaws…
Re: Out of Kargil
Pretty Damning accusations against the Indians Army Talwar jee, what excuse can you offer up?
Re: Out of Kargil
Ultimately, I dont think we have anything to apologize for. We are as innocent or as guilty as they, but still looking for Talwars rebutle.
Re: Out of Kargil
No one is asking for apologies. This is about analysis.
The Indian army's post mortem of Kargil showed many flaws. Gen. Malik's leadership was bad initially. But they were fixed as the conflict progressed.
But the fact remains that IA is professional enough to admit mistakes. Same cannot be said about your side PP1.
Kargil was a plan that came out of false assumptions of weakness of the enemy by Pakistani generals. Time and again they have refused to learn that lesson.
Re: Out of Kargil
Haris…There is nothing wrong in analysis, but your countrymen are stubborn against any criticism and off curse, knowledge…the same ego which disturbs your Generals, and for that soldiers of from both side had to die.
We Indians have carried on a postmortem in media and in parliament, whereas your Generals rejected everything, even to keep memory.
Days of Jihadi songs are over with the daggers as weapons of war, today for winning a war, you need a proper strategy, intelligence network and financial and public support etc…
Btw…the song is interesting…can I listen it on any website?..I am sure the music of this song is not copied from any Indian song,…like music of …‘Quaede azam tera ahasan hei ahesan’….is directly copied from ‘Sabarmati ke sant tune kar dya kamal, (a song in praise of M Gandhi).
Are your really serious of your theory about Indians digged out your dead soldiers from graves?
You know, that you are the first person who has cooked up this theory.
(Do me a favor, fix some rolling faces in my post at your ease. You are very fond of such impressions.)
Re: Out of Kargil
The American's were humiliated in Vietnam 30 years ago, and have spent all their time since trying to "win" the war through Hollywood movies. The Indian's were humiliated in Kargil 6 years ago, and now spend all their time trying to "win" the war through the internet.
And in all that time they have been forced to talk to that General - Musharraf, who has continued to show up Indian leaders at every opportunity, and win concession after concession out of them - softly, softly of course. :)
Re: Out of Kargil
Ooops forgot Indian's make some movies to "win" the Kargil war as well, and bring their top actors out to star in them as well. "Mission Kashmir". :D