Out of Kargil

[proudpakistani]

Re: Out of Kargil

@Haris Zuberi

yeah pp! IA is so cool they even play war games to win medals with handycams, soldiers cum part time actors and tomato ketchup!
but sad, they get courtmartialled too :o but maybe the courtmartials are also done by the IMA drama club

haris do you remember that story of the Indian army soldier that was being given the highest gallantry award with a story how he sacrificed his life and killed many many pakistani soldiers and during the presentation the wife of that soldier called that her husband is alive and in the hospital being treated for bullet wound in his butt? Indian chief of army staff was soo pissed off that he left the ceremony half way.

[Haris]

Re: Out of Kargil

@Talwar

In Kargil, only ONE fixed wing IA plane was shot down, that was Sq.Ldr. Ajay Ahuja’s MiG-21 on May 27, 1999. Flt.Lt. Nachiketa’s MiG-27 had an engine flame out, minutes before. Sq.Ldr. Ahuja was killed after he landed safely an PA lied that this parachute did not opene. They just executed him.

why wasnt Nachiketa executed then? he was handed back in good shape. did you guys get the body of Sqn Ldr Ahuja?

@Talwar

BTW, in Kargil, PAF chickened out and refused to even fight. Go ask RMS Azam in Pakdef or Brig(Retd). Shaukat Qadir of PA. Also ask Air.Cmdre. Kaiser Tufail.

sure thing. i’ll do that.
btw, chickening out isnt exactly how it was. didnt IAF chicken out after the above mentioned 2 IAF pilots were wrecked? if only IAF hadnt chickened out Pak could have suffered more loss through aeral bombardment. but Pak Ack Ack was too horrible wasnt it?

@Talwar

The Indian govt and IA separately conducted full post-mortems of Kargil and placed the responsibility at the feet of senior figures in the military and intelligence hierarchy. Generals lost their jobs and reputations.

yes, it’s always the generals, so Indian generals were foolish too…you say pak generals were foolish, we say yours were too, even score.

the frontline soldier is the real hero in every war. i respect the profession of a soldier be it a pakistani or an indian, he fights for what he believes in and if he doesnt believ in what he fights for, he is defeated even before he steps on battle ground. soldiers on both sides fought extremely bravely. there are amazing stories of heroism, individual and in camraderie on both sides. soldiers always emerge as heroes and they did in Kargil too. many heroes in pak and many in ind, a hero is a hero no matter where, for his actions.

@Talwar

PA to this day refuses to admit it was even there and there has been no investigation or analysis of what happened, who ordered it and what went wrong.
Is that the mark of a professional organization?

think of it this way, the operation had a lot to do with secrecy and intelligence authorities, how ethical intelligence involvement and methods are is a question all intelligence agencies of the world ought to answer including RAW, Mossad, CIA, KGB…they have been the pioneers. all do similar things. sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly.

[Haris]

Re: Out of Kargil

@proudpakistani

haris do you remember that story of the Indian army soldier that was being given the highest gallantry award with a story how he sacrificed his life and killed many many pakistani soldiers and during the presentation the wife of that soldier called that her husband is alive and in the hospital being treated for bullet wound in his butt? Indian chief of army staff was soo pissed off that he left the ceremony half way.

hehe yeah pp, i think i heard about it.

[queer]

Re: Out of Kargil

here we go again - pakistanis bragging how their soldiers are the bravest of the brave and how indian soldiers are no good. history tells a very different story.

not having won a single war so far, the only thing pakistani army has proven to be good for in the last 57 years is in oppressing pakistani citizens and in stealing civilian land/jobs/farms/governments.

[Haris]

Re: Out of Kargil

@Talwar

Utter nonsense! It was Musharraf who had the stomach troubles and ordered Nawaz to go to Washington and get himself a face saver.

Haris - pls recalibrate your history of Kargil.

yeah my mistake i fail to understand that you will only believe the version showing the down side for pakistan or musharraf or the side which is generally misdirected or misinformed but shows the better side of India, regardless it’s true or not. one gen says smthng and it’s divine revelation.
and sure you’ll believe Benazir and SA Tribune, everyone knows how darned credible both sources are. biased based ideologies and perspectives dont do much for history.

btw, my history of Kargil is fine thanks. the problem is that our versions are diff. i’m open to accept admit where there was wrong on Pak side, but your version portrays India, its leadership and its army as a flawless phenomenon. everyone knows it isnt so, far from it. but if you insist in believing it, who are we to force you to stop. plus, my versions are not supported in argument by initiating riducule against the rival army, public, govt and ideologies. if ever i do so, it is in response.

[Haris]

Re: Out of Kargil

@queer

(subtract US aid and the real growth rate will be no more than the usual 4%).

name a 3 world nation that imporoved without foreign aid and support. now dont tell me india isnt 3 world.

[proudpakistani]

Re: Out of Kargil

[quote=“queer”]
here we go again - pakistanis bragging how their soldiers are the bravest of the brave and how indian soldiers are no good. history tells a very different story.
QUOTE]
Thank god i didnt read that bollywood history.

[Haris]

Re: Out of Kargil

@queer

here we go again - pakistanis bragging how their soldiers are the bravest of the brave and how indian soldiers are no good. history tells a very different story.

not having won a single war so far, the only thing pakistani army has proven to be good for in the last 57 years is in oppressing pakistani citizens and in stealing civilian land/jobs/farms/governments.

I am a Pakistani and i hold my army in the highest regard thank God. so you worry not. they did pretty well in all wars, we say we won them you say you did. being 3 times the size of Pakistan if India had done even worse than it did, it would have been a real sorry state.

[queer]

Re: Out of Kargil

maybe so, but attributing a growth rate, thats solely been due to a nice chunk of immediate US aid to Pakistan for selling out its bedfellow the taliban, to “excellence of the army government” is a crock of shyt. and that is exactly what is being claimed.

oh yeah pakistan won the 1971 war but the indian friendly media just fed teh world a bunch of lies.

india being three times the size of pakistan? looks like the pakistani army textbooks now show saudi arabia as part of pakistan.

[proudpakistani]

Re: Out of Kargil

@queer

oh yeah pakistan won the 1971 war but the indian friendly media just fed teh world a bunch of lies.

wow…1 out of 3. that is an achievement.

[system]

Re: Out of Kargil

@Talwar

Whatever makes you happy dude. Atleast we did not lose 3000 soldiers, retreat in humiliation and disown our warriors for no reason.

Humiliation? It was we who got in and took the territory you claim… Our entire history is a testemnet to our nations fortitude. We have fought you in three wars despite your overwhelming size in every sphere. Its is you who should be embarrsed by your countries incompatence. We have even fought you at the highest battle field of the world after your armies sudden invasion, and we have contiued to do so despite our limited resources to this day.
And how many soldiers did you lose with that brilliant close your eyes and run up the mountain tactic? Its no wonder your army is the envy of the world.

[Talwar]

Re: Out of Kargil

@Haris Zuberi

why wasnt Nachiketa executed then? he was handed back in good shape. did you guys get the body of Sqn Ldr Ahuja?

Here is a neutral BBC report:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/360095.stm

Nobody knows what happened to Flight Lieutenant Ahuja. The Indians said that when his body was returned with full military honours it was full of bullet holes.

The Pakistanis indignantly denied that they had killed him - they say he was dead when he was found.

**The Pakistani brigadier rather implausibly suggested that his parachute hadn’t opened and that he fell to the earth like a stone. The fact that his parachute - plainly open - was lying at the brigadier’s feet suggested that the truth was somewhat different. **

sure thing. i’ll do that.
btw, chickening out isnt exactly how it was. didnt IAF chicken out after the above mentioned 2 IAF pilots were wrecked? if only IAF hadnt chickened out Pak could have suffered more loss through aeral bombardment. but Pak Ack Ack was too horrible wasnt it?

IAF lost its last plane on May 28, 1999. It conducted a few hundred combat sorties between then and July 4, 1999 bombarding dozens of Pak positions with devastating effect. Hardly chickening out is it?

yes, it’s always the generals, so Indian generals were foolish too…you say pak generals were foolish, we say yours were too, even score.

But IA and Indian MoD conducted investigations and punished the culprits who were negligent.

Does PA have a history of ever accepting mistakes and punishing guilty? Why is PA afraid of an open investigation of why it started Kargil, what assumptions it made and why it failed in its obejctives?

[system]

Re: Out of Kargil

@queer

here we go again - pakistanis bragging how their soldiers are the bravest of the brave and how indian soldiers are no good. history tells a very different story.

not having won a single war so far, the only thing pakistani army has proven to be good for in the last 57 years is in oppressing pakistani citizens and in stealing civilian land/jobs/farms/governments.

Whats your army proven itself in? Raping women and kidnapping?
Honestly, we have fought you guys three times and did so valiantly. You guys fought one other power that wasnt nearly as large a power to you as India is to pak.. Remeber the war with China? You got your butts kicked, and only showed the world the pathetic nature of your armed forces. You should be glad you have the nuke, your country is helpless otherwise.

[system]

Re: Out of Kargil

Kargil was a calculated risk and one that had to be taken...

[Talwar]

Re: Out of Kargil

@Haris Zuberi

yeah pp! IA is so cool they even play war games to win medals with handycams, soldiers cum part time actors and tomato ketchup!
but sad, they get courtmartialled too :o but maybe the courtmartials are also done by the IMA drama club

The difference between PA and IA is that in India, the army is professional enough to punish those who violate rules. The Major who faked combat in Siachen was courtmartialled.

In PA, for example Generals were found guilty of cowardice and worse in 1971 and they got promoted.

[Talwar]

Re: Out of Kargil

@PaKpatriot1

Whats your army proven itself in? Raping women and kidnapping?
Honestly, we have fought you guys three times and did so valiantly. You guys fought one other power that wasnt nearly as large a power to you as India is to pak.. Remeber the war with China? You got your butts kicked, and only showed the world the pathetic nature of your armed forces. You should be glad you have the nuke, your country is helpless otherwise.

Remeber 1971? Very valiant indeed.

[Reza_Pahlavi]

Re: Out of Kargil

Indian's will always remember Kargil, 1999 and this thread quite aptly proves it. They are so, what's the buzz word these days? - soft. :)

[queer]

Re: Out of Kargil

pakpatriot, do you see indians elevating the indian army to the untouchable status you pakistanis seem to do with your wonderful gem of an army?

pakistanis seem to be a masochist lot - instead of protesting their army's aggression on every sphere of civilian life and sending them back to their barracks to do what it is paid for from poor farmer's money, pakistanis wallow in it.

[anjjan]

Re: Out of Kargil

@Haris Zuberi

now if your soldiers digged out our martyred heroes and claimed they were abandoned, what can be said…? it’s a pity. plus, have you read anyhting about capt Sher Khan? one

Haris….A correction, your Govt rejected to recognize the dead bodies of your armed soldiers, and today you tell us a new theory that we digged out those bodies of your martyred heroes from old graves.
For face saving on GS, you can go to extreme fantasy, is it the way you honor your soldiers?….What to say about rest of your murmuring?

(For your information your Govt and Generals rejected to recognize the dead bodies of your martyres, because they were busy in telling the world community that the deads were self-styled Mujaheedins, were not even citizens of Pakistan….I feel sorry for your martyrs, they died for the motherland but rejected for martyrdom.
Don’t worry; our armed forces buried them with full army honor.)

Re..your version of glacier,…you have to study how all posts are abondoned in winter and reoccupied in summer. So, next time you cook up a new theory, check the records first.

[Talwar]

Re: Out of Kargil

@PaKpatriot1

And how many soldiers did you lose with that brilliant close your eyes and run up the mountain tactic? Its no wonder your army is the envy of the world.

PP1,

Indian Army’s tactics during Kargil are now used as an example of what to do when taking moutnaintop positions by NATO. It takes more bravery to assault sheer vertical cliffs from below in the night than to occupy empty posts when there is no enemy.

I have with me two studies by the US military. The first one is by a serving instructor in the US Army’s 10th Mountain Division. I also have a softcopy of this, so I can email you if you’d like. Here is what it says about IA operations:

Tiger Hill

Daring maneuver on an unexpected approach, in coordination with overwhelming firepower, had ended the stalemate on Tiger Hill.

Balal Post

one daring Indian attack stands as an amazing example of the benefit of mountaineering expertise.

Tololing Top

Daring nighttime maneuver over steep terrain, in coordination with massive firepower, broke NLI defenses in all areas.

I also have with me the ahrdcopy of another detialed analysis by US National Defense University that admires IA tactics. I’ll post more neutral sources. Note that these studies had equal input from IA and PA officers.

Can you point to ONE neutral source that admires Pak army tactics in Kargil?