Out of Kargil

Re: Out of Kargil

haha India is a complete joke. It is a country that holds 1/4 of the worlds population and only other Indians notice. LOL you guys spend your time lording over Pakistan. Thats like the USA and Mexico fighting a war (at least size/population wise). What a complete laugh. I think the Indian history of foreign domination has imprinted a permanent inferiority complex that handicaps Indians forever.
Thats not to say that Pakistan (govt. and military) has anything to be proud of from any of this (Pakistan has obvious problems I dont need to get into), but certainly if I were Indian I would be mortally embarassed that despite making up such a large part of the worlds population my people are totally irrelevant.
You are famous for 2 things -> Bollywood (men dancing around trees like fairies)
-> cricket (being worse than Pakistan in cricket by the way)
and honestly, I dont mean to be an a$$ but its just the way I see it.

Re: Out of Kargil

talwar as i said before don’t try ur bs sympathy on what happened to pakistani soldiers…u and ur buddies should concentrate more on anti-pakistan sentiments pakistan cuz thats ur primary mission in GS right?
One more thing ask reasonable questions mate i know that u r pissed but these quotes dont make sense coming from an intelligent person like u :smiley:

for now i will give u one link…we have honured our heroes i already gave u a link …here is story of a real hero…i am sure u and ur bhindian mates will refuse to believe it
http://www.swabi.4mg.com/heros.html

Re: Out of Kargil

Homer,

I have respect for all warriors, unlike most here.

If you want, PM me your email and I'll send you scans of articles from Pakistani papers and magazines that describe in detail how your govt behaved with the NLI men.

Some examples of the :

  1. Soldiers' bodies were transported in the night and dumped in front of houses in darkness with no regimental protocol.

  2. Some families in Ghizer and Hunza protested publicly. Some protestors were jailed for months under sedition charges.

  3. "Agencies" tried to send Al Badar and other "mujahideen" to Skardu to pretend that they were the people behind Kargil. When relatives of NLI people protested, they were beaten up.

  4. When PA cut off supplies because of Indian bombing, NLI jawans sent message through injured soldiers to get help. Nothing happened and they were left to rot because PA could not involve itself openly after the fighting heated up.

  5. Some NLI jawans came back almost in coma because of Kidney failure due to drinking cordite laced water. PA refused to open large scale forward medical camps in Skardu again because of denial of involvement. Many troops died in their homes. Same with the frostbite cases. Only officers and a handful of jawans were shifted to Pindi.

  6. PA did pay up only after a riot in Ghizer by NLI men. They were later appeased by giving free Haj trips and 6 kanals of land each in addition to Rs. 500,000.

The behavior of your army's leadership during Kargil has been a disgrace to its name. You cannot spin that.

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yeah i know man. PA treated its soldiers soo badly that everyone in Pakistan is leaving military and joining IA. Only you can believe that crap.

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There were acts of bravery from both sides. from pakistanis to defend the peaks that they have taken and from Indians to try take the peaks. The fact does remain that Indian ill preparedness came to open during the conflict. The fail in inteligence, having to buy expensive equipment from SA during war due to shortage, faking injuries and many many more.
I guess the purpose that was in the mind of the Generals that planned didnt happen 100% under severe pressure from the US government and Musharraf had to bend, but that does not mean that the military or the people of Pakistan neglected the sacrifices of the soldiers that faught in kargil. Everything is done in the interest of the country, and at that time, this was the interest of the country. I know people that were involved in the kargil war. Most of them were from NLI and from my area. talwar, i can assure you that they were not mistreated. They are as much Pakistanis as they were before the war. The fact that a few hundred people (as claimed by Indians in the beginning) inflicted that much loss on the great Indian military was more than enuff for those fighting in kargil.

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exactly :k:

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And for this reason you rejected to pick up the dead bodies of your soldiers?

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http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/archives/archives1999/99august05.html

Kargil was Pakistan’s biggest blunder
By: Benazir Bhutto

Excerpts….
In the snow-clad mountains, Pakistani-backed men took up positions they had no hope to keep. Pakistan was made to retreat from the mountain tops in disgrace when it found itself internationally isolated and blamed for the conflict. Instead of announcing the withdrawal from Islamabad in an attempt to keep the country’s dignity, the Prime Minister trotted off to see the US President and “take dictation” from Washington.

The Indian government, which outsmarted, outmanoeuvred and outflanked the Pakistani leadership at every level, is crowing from the rooftops. The election prospects of the BJP have received an enormous boost. The Pakistani people, who were told they were winning the war, are bewildered an humiliated. The Indians are basking in the accolades the international community is bestowing upon them. They are hoping that “the maturity and restraint,” which earned them world praise, will also mitigate opposition to their bid for permanent membership of the UN Security Council.

The Pakistan regime has claimed victory. It claims to have established that it values peace and has won the respect of the international community by having the courage to finally withdraw. It interprets the Washington agreement as evidence of the internationalisation of the Kashmir issue. Securing the interest of President Clinton is no “small thing,” maintains Nawaz Sharif.

This interpretation is widely perceived as an attempt to “spin-doctor” a disaster into a triumph

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http://www.satribune.com/archives/august04/P1_rauf.htm

Kargil Debacle:Musharraf’s Time Bomb, Waiting to Explode

Excerpts….

The five years since Kargil have also established the fact that the truth will not come out until the Army rules the roost. A Kargil Commission will never be set up like the Hamoodur Rehman Commission, unless a genuinely elected political government takes over.

The issue, however, is far from dead and sooner than later, Kargil will blow into a real crisis for the Pakistan Army.

Re: Out of Kargil

http://www.defencejournal.com/aug99/anatomy.htm

Anatomy of Islamabad’s Kargil Policy
From the BOARD of EDITORIAL ADVISORS, Ms NASIM ZEHRA conducts a thorough post-mortem of the government’s policy vis-a-vis KARGIL
Excerpts….
Irrespective of what the government may claim, as it must, Pakistan’s Kargil policy finally got stumped. Its own internal contradictions finally caught up. Contradictions were borne off multiple inadequacies. These included bad planning, lack of inter-institutional unanimity on what was the Kargil objective, inadequate inter-institutional coordination, lack of will-power to carry through decisions, inability to fully iron out institutional differences necessary for operational clarity. Ultimately the absence of a well coordinated and well thought out Kargil-Kashmir policy led to what at least appeared to be U-turn in Pakistan’s policy. In sheer contrast with India’s clearly defined and competently implemented policy.

However, right or wrong, for many therefore the essence of the Clinton-Nawaz agreement requiring Pakistan to ensure withdrawal of the Mujahideen, comes as a shock. Comments by a pained Pakistani best convey the public’s sentiments, ‘The dash to Washington has humiliated the people, it has undermined our self-respect … are we American lackeys without brains and competence to handle our own decision-making? Our efforts on Kashmir are like shooting stars, creating a flair in the sky, getting us excited and then taking us down through a pathetic performance. Now the Indians are making our planned withdrawal appear like an Indian victory, worse than 1971.’ Harsh as it maybe, these are the words of anguish. Calling for accountability.

Meanwhile the Kashmir issue lives on. From the major mistakes in the Kargil operation, major learning is required. After all Pakistan has five problematic non-winning Kashmir-related military engagements with India. On the UN front too we have an unfortunate record of hat-trick even on the diplomatic front. Pakistan’s record on formulating and executing its Kashmir policy speaks for itself. So much incompetence borne of non-institutionalized policy formulation and policy execution, can only be called criminal. Existing institutional set-ups are grossly inadequate. A National Security Council or an Advisory Council comprising of competent multi-disciplinary experts , required for sound policy making is a must.

Re: Out of Kargil

Those not so brave Indian soldiers.

http://www.mumbai-central.com/nukkad/aug2001/msg00061.html

**40 Indian army officers face inquiry for futile attacks on Pakistan: **

ISLAMABAD, Aug 03: At least 40 officers of Indian Army face Courts of Inquiry on charges ranging from failure of command and control to cowardice and desertion, during fruitless attacks on various Pakistani posts. A report in Indian Magazine “Out Look” under the caption of “War and Watch-Hunts” says these army officers include ranks of Major and below, Junior Commissioned Officers and jawans. It says "None of the generals, whose duty it was to conduct the war is facing any official inquiry for their flawed leadership. Instead, two of them have been decorated and awarded with plum posting. This has triggered enormous resentment among the junior officers and men.

This is the first time in the history of the Indian Army that such a large number of inquiries have been initiated against officers and men. **But when allegations in the press and Parliament surfaced that the top brass had mismanaged the Kargil operations, the generals concerned were quick to launch a cover-up operation. The ploy they used was to selectively target battalions entrusted with the most difficult of tasks- charging up the mountain to evict the “freedom fighters” perched atop, a strategy built around high human cost. Other top targets are officers and men of those battalions charged with failing to detect the take over while the top brass ignored the early warnings of heightened enemy build-ups. The blame has been placed solely on those deployed in Kargil. Even the Subrahmanyam Committee talks of overall intelligence failure. **

According to a serving general, more planning should have preceded the sending of men up the treacherous mountains. The suggested plan of action was to take positions on the sides of the hills, launch an aerial attack and starve the freedom fighters. Then final assault should have been followed. But the Army Chief, under pressure from a political leadership, wanted quick results. One senior officer recalls the chief’s brief: “I want the war over quickly, whatever the cost.” As a result, troops were sent on suicidal missions. Some of those who retreated in the face of heavy freedom fighters’ fire are precisely those currently branded as cowards." The magazine quoted a senior general at army headquarters as saying," It was a foolhardy battle, which sent officers and men to certain death. Junior officers have been made scape-goats since the seniors who bungled are known to be close to the chief." Junior officers posted in the Leh-Kargil-Batalik region are outraged that the generals should get away.

The man who orchestrated this unprecedented campaign is former Chief of Army Staff Gen. V.P. Malik, who issued a show-cause notice to Brig Surinder Singh, the then commander of the Kargil based 121 Brigade, asking why he shouldn’t be dismissed from service for his various acts of “commission and omission.” The irony is that Malik himself was accused of taking the Kargil issue lightly and going on a ’ goodwill’ visit to Poland and holidaying in Europe even after it was known the freedom fighters had taken over the heights. Officers in the Judge Advocate General’s branch have told media persons that all the officers and men facing the Courts of Inquiries are likely to be let off with a mild reprimand and they should not be hasty in rushing to civilian courts. Clearly, Army Headquarters is apprehensive that those being targeted will move the courts. In Srinagar, officers are aghast that there has been selective victimisation even of JCOs. “JCOs simply follow the orders of their immediate superiors. By targeting them, the seniors are only demoralising the vital link between officers and ORs (other ranks) personnel,” a major pointed out. (APP)

Re: Out of Kargil

The behavior of the Indian army’s leadership during Kargil war wass a total disgrace - just ask some of it’s soldiers like Brigadier Surinder Singh, a man sacked because he dared tell the truth of India’s debacle and humiliation.

Re: Out of Kargil

One Indian failure after another.

http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/1673.asp

**Indian Army admits a series of blunders and critical failures in Kargil report **

Media Release
Feb. 21, 2005

Five years down the Kargil war, the Army has admitted a series of blunders and critical failures that cost with the lives of its 474 officers and men in an “internal assessment report”, documented from top secret operational notes with the military operations directorate. The 250-odd page secret report on the war fought on the icy heights of Kargil between May and July 1999 that has been scooped by the Indian English weekly Outlook in its latest edition is full of sensational revelations like:

*** Senior commanders reached late. There were lapses in command and control.

  • There was total intelligence failure.

  • It was presumed that an overt nuclear posture would guarantee peace.

  • The army was in low intensity conflict mode and unprepared for a conventional war.

  • There was a sense of complacency. It was assumed there would be no incursion across difficult and harsh terrain.

  • Senior officers were physically unfit. And there was lack of initiative at the JCO-NCO level.

  • Troops didn’t have any acclimatisation.

  • Northern Command was stretched and troop levels were not adequate. **

While stressing that three defence chiefs were indecisive and so was then Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, the weekly magazine says the secret report not only chronicalises what went wrong but also puts on record what India’s defence establishment has done to ensure that such lapses don’t occur in the future. The secret report, according to the magazine, is a result of the decision to take a dispassionate look at the war and to record its history and disseminate it among top generals of the army was taken two years ago when Gen N.C. Vij took over as army chief. He had witnessed the war at close quarters as the Director General of Military Operations (DGMO), a position that had given him the first knowledge of the secret operational notes. Gen. Vij got the documents compiled for the benefit of the army’s senior commanders to learn “valuable lessons of the art of war”-a war that was fought in recent times and won, albeit after paying a heavy price. The report is full of the critical failures that happened at various levels. Senior commanders failed to deliver, the intelligence set-up proved ineffective, battalions were led by people too old to climb razor-edge peaks in sub-zero climes, rifles that were introduced midway through the war created problems and the delay in deploying air power during the conflict prolonged the war.

INTELLIGENCE FAILURE: According to the army’s assessment in the report, one of the biggest lessons of the Kargil war was that there “was a sense of complacency among the officers and men”. It was believed at the command level and on the ground that the “terrain was so difficult that there would not be any incursions”. The army’s “winter posture” had led to vacating a few critical posts. This was coupled with the fact that nearly “a 130 km stretch between Turtuk and Zojila had no sensors”. The “winter air surveillance operations (WASO)” is described as “at best, not very effective.” The assessment also recognises another factor that caused much heartburn within the army’s higher echelons-the fact that there were no inputs from the Research & Analysis Wing (RAW), whose prime task is to gather foreign intelligence. While RAW did manage an “intelligence scoop by intercepting a call between Gen Pervez Musharraf and his chief of staff”, there were no initial inputs on the extent of incursions into Kargil. The fact that there were “no ground sensors” on the 130 km stretch also adversely affected the army’s ability to preempt the incursions. It has also been put on record that Military Intelligence was unable to “analyse certain inputs”. For instance, there were reports of “large-scale animal transport movements on the Pakistani side of the LoC”. However, military intelligence summarised that these were undertaken to replenish ammunition for the Pakistani artillery regiments. Lessons: A range of new technology has been introduced, including regular flights by unmanned aerial vehicles.

UNFIT SENIORS AND LAX JUNIORS: The assessment points out that with an older profile of “commanders at the battalion and brigade level”, the army was literally gasping for breath. Two commanding officers of infantry battalions were moved out as they were physically unfit to deal with the demands made by the rugged terrain, high altitude and the rigours of war. The report also points out that equivalent Pakistani commanders were “younger by three to four years.” A sizeable proportion of the 474 killed during the war were young commissioned officers (lieutenants and captains) who had just passed out of the Indian Military Academy and had joined their respective units. The high casualty rate among them has been largely attributed in the assessment to the “severe lack of initiative in the junior leadership”, specifically among Junior Commissioned Officers (JCOs) and Non-Commissioned Officers (NCO) who are platoon commanders. They were also found to be averse to taking risks. Finally, if the war was won, the report says, it was due to the “courage and leadership of the young (commissioned) officers” who “carried the bulk of the burden”.

Re: Out of Kargil

reza most importnt outcome is pakistan as country lost its credebility among all nations
including islamic since no one supported pakistan .

Re: Out of Kargil

why do our leaders continue to talk to this criminal musharrrf after what he did in kargil? Even Atal ji made that mistake even though he refused to shake his hand when he went to lahore and now these congress walas and communists are making deals with this crook. shame on our leaders!

Re: Out of Kargil

anjjan, if you want a competetion in posting articles, i can post alot of them including the one, "they are killing us like dogs." It does not prove anything.
As a military strategy, it was a great plan and was very well carried out by the soldiers and the mujahideen. Unfortunately, politically Pakistan was not ready to carry out such an operation. Still i think it was a success for Pakistan with pakistan still occupying some of the peaks.
And Pakistan did not lose any credibility.

Re: Out of Kargil

Anjjan,
have you been to Kargil? or anywhere up north higher than 15000ft?
the Kargil war wasnt confined to only KARGIL proper, it was in all directions up and down around Kargil, and up there nature has what we know as glaciers, now if you dont know what they are, try and learn first. a hint though; the snow doesnt melt in summer.

as far as my murmuring goes; sure thing, it isnt meant for a biased mind like yours who would refuse the truth staring in the eye.

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We really need to address the issue of Indian pathetic army giving their dead to Pakistan army for burial. I bet Hindu Terrorists have not dreamed of taking over Pakistan in such a fashion.

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true homer.
they can never understand the philosophy behind it. while our soldiers leave home for battle praying to do their best and be provided the opportunity to achieve the highest glory in martyrdom, their soldiers often leave home waiting to return asap; such is portrayed by indian literature, music and movies. while our war song goes “aye marde mujahid jaag zaraa ab waqte shahaadat hai aaya” a famous indian war song also popular in pakistan goes “main waapas aaon gaa, main waapas aaon gaa” (lyrics from the Border movie song ‘sandese aate hain’).
ridicule on my indian friends, but i assure you, youre invite to Pak and i’ll take you around to the homes of men who fell in kargil and to the homes of men who had nothing to do with it alike, no one would be crying over the martyrdoms the way you say we are or ought to be.

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:hehe: yeah pp! IA is so cool they even play war games to win medals with handycams, soldiers cum part time actors and tomato ketchup!
but sad, they get courtmartialled too :o but maybe the courtmartials are also done by the IMA drama club :smiley: