Re: Out of Kargil
^lol …mate then why guys crying suddenly after 5 yrs… I guess ur scars from the kargil war are not healed yet thats why ur buddy anjjaan brought the topic up…
BTW does this reliable statistic only show pakistani deaths or does it say that some indian soldiers died too…
Re: Out of Kargil
exactly! 
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talwar how many did India lose? including the fighter pilots that were shot down. what was his name? the first one was Flg Off Nachiketa i think. is he still flying?
Re: Out of Kargil
Homer & Haris…We are not your competitor in week memory. In fact some Pak citizen must raise this issue.
What actually Pakistan achieved? Your soldiers entered Indian territory in disguise of Mujaheedins, and after great casualties on both sides they retreated. In the early days of Kargil war the Pak govt and army refused to own the responsibility of this undeclared war.
Your army was bound to reject your deads. The most shameful act, no parallels. And today you cannot say that they were Mujaheedins….as officially your Govt and Army has honored some of your soldiers…have issued them pensions etc.
And after what actually you got when five years are over?
India agreed for negotiations after two years of Kargil, Musharrraf came to India, but again there was no breakthrough. Negotiations started again after four years…,credit does not go to Kargil.
So, what actually Pakistan achieved out of Kargil?
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though this is high quality crap, not because it’s crap, but because India didnt exactly come out of it with marching bands either.
Pakistani generals planned a massive operation, carried it out while Indian generals vacated the posts on most imp locations because it got too cold.
and as far as owning, disowining, honouring our soldiers is concerned, you bet they are honoured, they are decorated and held in the highest regard. many were burried in snow, as is the custom for those martyred in glaciers. now if your soldiers digged out our martyred heroes and claimed they were abandoned, what can be said…? it’s a pity. plus, have you read anyhting about capt Sher Khan? one of your battalion commanders the CO of 8th Sikh Regt sent reccomendation for a gallantry award for him. had pakistan refused totally to accept the fallen, Sher Khan and Lalak Jan wouldnt have been awarded the Nishan-i-Haider by July 1999, the highest award. and as far as not finishing a fight picked up, i’m sure India too will face chaos in any battle being fought by the army abandoned half way through by the govt.
Re: Out of Kargil
lemme jog their memory haris
Soldiers buried with full honours Dawn Report
SWABI, July 18: Two brave soldiers of Pakistan Army, who had volunteered to fight for the defence of the country, were laid to rest in their native towns on Sunday.
Captain Karnal Sher Khan was buried at Nawan Killi, Swabi, while another, Captain Amir Ali Noor was buried at Abbottabad with full military honours.
In Swabi, the Namaz-i-Janaza of Captain Karnal Sher Khan was attended by the NWFP Governor Mohammad Arif Bangash, high-ranking officials, local officers and jawans of armed forces and a large number of people from all walks of life.
Earlier a Namaz-i-Janaza for the two Pakistan Army personnel was offered at PAF Base, Chaklala at Rawalpind on Sunday morning.
President Mohammad Rafiq Tarar, federal ministers, services chiefs, other senior and retired civil and military officers, junior commissioned officers, jawans and relatives of the Shuhada were present on the occasion.
The body of Karnal Sher Khan and another official of Pakistan Army were handed over to International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) by the Indians on Saturday after keeping them for 19 days. Body of Captain Karnal Sher Khan was received at Chaklala Air Base, Rawalpindi on Sunday morning by Chief of the Army Staff, General Pervez Musharaaf where his Namaz-i-Janaza was offered.
Earlier, his Namaz-i-Janaza was also offered at Quaid-i-Azam International airport Karachi when his body reached there. Finally he was laid to rest here at his ancestral town Faujoonabad, Charbagh (Swabi).
Karnal Sher first joined Pakistan Air Force as an aeronautics engineer and later opted for Pakistan Army and joined 27th Sindh Regiment as a Commissioned officer.
The news of his martyrdomwas first considered by his family members as a propaganda campaign by India but later the BBC and his brother from UAE confirmed.
Karnal was not actually part of his name. It was his grandfather Sher Ghalib Khan who called him Karnal Sher when he was a child. After joining the army he really added the word Karnal (colonel) to his name and that he was known as Karnal Sher Khan.
Karnal Sher was not married and was to marry in the near future, which was delayed due to his abrupt transfer to the LoC.
ABBOTTABAD:Captain Amir Ali Noor who sacrificed his life at Line of Control was buried here with full military honours.
Captain Amir Ali of 20 Lancer Armed Corps was posted at Kargil sector at LoC. He was hit by a shell fired by Indian Army at LoC and in critical condition, he was shifted to CMH Rawalpindi where he lost his breath during the journey.
His Namaz-i-Janaza was held here at Baloch Regiment Centre athletic ground which was attended by a large number of people from all walks of life and according to elders of the city, this was the biggest ever Namaz-i-Janaza held in the city.
Those who attended the funeral were federal minister Gohar Ayub Khan, Air Marshal Asghar Khan, Quarter Master General LtGen Mohammad Akram, Maj Gen Arif Hassan represented Commander 10 Corps, Director General Armed Corps Maj Gen Rehmat, Commandant PMA Kakul Maj Gen Imtiaz Shaheen, Station Commander Abbottabad Brig M. Omer, Sardar Fida, MNA, represented chief minister NWFP Sardar Mehtab Ahmed Khan.
Unmarried Captain Amir was 27.
Re: Out of Kargil
Anjjan, thats what i'm trying to get through. Yes, nothing was gained out of it, if thats what you want to hear. but why wasnt anyhting gained out of it? and what was sought from it in the fist place? since India never wanted to honour any agreements or come over to the diplomatic dialogue table, which it now has, Mujahideen continued their struggle for freedom supported by the country and its army. this went for ages. then came Gen Mush as COAS in 1999. he took the bold initiative and decided to do somehting about it and made a plan to get what was sought by force. after all India had done that too only about 52 years earlier in Junnagarrh, Kashmir, Hyderabad etc. the plan was brilliant and made excellent use of loopholes created by the otherside. it was implemented by the PM's consent, it's inconceivable to think it was doen without his knowledge. he was part of it. he visited the troops to encourage them in feb 1999 with Gen Mush. now when the plan was implemented it went successful and did strangle the Indian logistics and strategic superiority in the area. the initial blows were massive. it was going well and had it continued for a few more months as planned, the mujahideen and the regulars helping them would have taken over some areas that were sought. and who gives a crap about UN and treaties and agreements? that was what Pakistan had learned in the past 50 yrs from india. But, half way through our PM Nawaz Sharif began to have stomach troubles and abandoned his nation, its army and military leadership in an extremely embarassing situation claiming his hands were clean and tried to prove he had nothing to do with it to save his self. That was where the plan went wrong. the link between the govt and military was broken leaving huge gaps and room for confusion allowing India to take full advantage, get in a stronger postion and make the biggest fuss out of things that happened and did not happen alike. because the plan was sabbotaged by Pakistans very own leader Nawaz Sharif, India had fun! (a point for us Pakistanis to note here, it was the second time civil leaders, and those they corrupted, abandoned the army in face of battle. like Gen Niazi was abandoned with no GHQ contact during the second week of Dec 1971 in Dhaka). So, the plan failed and didnt draw the desired results...if it hadnt been so, the results may have been diff, who knows...? obviously it wasnt supposed to be flawless and massive resistnace was expected and was met from India, who it must be said did very well countering the offensive.
So some years later, since that didnt work for both sides, everyone accepts it was a misadventure either because it was not let to finish or either because fighting is no solution and killing thousands gets noone anywhere...Today it's most commendable that both sides have accepeted that and have agreed to sort out things by more longlasting and peaceful means. who has accepted what is best left unassumed; if Pakistan couldnt afford a war, India couldnt afford an ant up the trunk either. so in the least if nothing, it did cause deterrence, no one's ready for a conflict likt it anymore. it can be said the plan wasnt a complete failure after all...as it atleast highlighted and propelled the issue to international notice and the region is given attention that it never was before. Had the current harmony and air of understanding and long lasting peace and hopes been accepted, spread and implemented earlier many years ago, without any armed conflicts, without Kargil, it all would have been ideal...and no one would have had any need or reason to plan or appreciate an operation like Kargil in the first place...perhaps atleast now those in command seem to realize that, whether due to the lessons drawn from the past or out of starting a new begining is not important, whats imp is that now it seems conflict will not be reqd, there are hopes of a peaceful end to the problems, hopes of harmony and lasting peace through sober negotiations keeping in view the emotions of all sides involved.
Re: Out of Kargil
Haris…..first check the duration and dates of Kargil war….if you find snow, I will shiver of cold……… (Next time, be more careful!)
http://india-today.com/kargil/
Your rest murmuring…to whom you are trying to justify this mindless activity of your generals, if not to yourself?
I am a fast reader. Could not find if they were Kargil martyres? And what do you want to prove with two evidences….?
Re: Out of Kargil
anjaan as i said many times before keep crying (sorry again keep trying)
i would like to refer u back to this post …
now u can move back and forth in circles on this topic
ciao 
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This is the mentality that leads too foolish misadventures.
Let’s send our troops, get them killed by the thousands while our Generals play golf and deny involvement. All to see some Indians killed as well. Happy?
Why don’t you go to Gilgit and laugh at the face of the relatives NLI jawans whose bodies are still lying in the nullahs and the gorges in Dras and Batalik? Ask the half-widows who cannot remarry without having proof of their husband’s death. Laugh at them and tell them that their breadwinners were killed just so that some Indians could be killed as well.
BTW, 2 or 3 bodies accepted out of 3000 killed is no honour. Your army still denies it was even there. Shows the true nature of your army’s leadership.
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shaheed ki jo maut hai woh qaum ki hayaat hai…tum nahin samjho gay bacha
Re: Out of Kargil
In Kargil, only ONE fixed wing IA plane was shot down, that was Sq.Ldr. Ajay Ahuja’s MiG-21 on May 27, 1999. Flt.Lt. Nachiketa’s MiG-27 had an engine flame out, minutes before. Sq.Ldr. Ahuja was killed after he landed safely an PA lied that this parachute did not opene. They just executed him.
BTW, in Kargil, PAF chickened out and refused to even fight. Go ask RMS Azam in Pakdef or Brig(Retd). Shaukat Qadir of PA. Also ask Air.Cmdre. Kaiser Tufail.
The Indian govt and IA separately conducted full post-mortems of Kargil and placed the responsibility at the feet of senior figures in the military and intelligence hierarchy. Generals lost their jobs and reputations.
PA to this day refuses to admit it was even there and there has been no investigation or analysis of what happened, who ordered it and what went wrong.
Is that the mark of a professional organization?
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Yes, I will never understand the people who send their soldiers on a death mission while their commanding officers show cowardice by not backing them up. All so that people like you can have a laugh.
Like I said, why don’t you go to Gilgit and Skardu and have the same laugh?
Re: Out of Kargil
Utter nonsense! It was Musharraf who had the stomach troubles and ordered Nawaz to go to Washington and get himself a face saver.
Read all about out in former Centcom Commander, Gen. Anthony Zinni’s autobiography.
See:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040603-072219-7816r.htm
QUOTE:
Still, many in Pakistan believe that if Sharif had not lost his nerve and allowed the troops to stay there for another month or so, Pakistan could have won a key strategic battle against India.
…
But in his book, Zinni says it was Musharraf who advised Sharif to listen to the U.S. proposal and withdraw the troops from Kargil.
Zinni, who headed the U.S. Central Command from 1997 to 2000, was sent to Pakistan as a special presidential envoy during the Kargil crisis.
The book, which was published in the United States last week, dispels the general impression that it was the civilian leadership in Pakistan that sought Washington’s help in arranging a respectable withdrawal from Kargil.
Instead, the general says, the civilian leadership was worried that the withdrawal could cause them a loss of face, and to allay their fears President Bill Clinton offered a plan that could have arranged a respectable withdrawal.
But even at this stage, according to Zinni, Sharif and his civilian colleagues appeared reluctant to endorse a withdrawal.
“That got Musharraf’s attention, and he encouraged Prime Minister Sharif to hear me out,” writes Zinni.
Sharif was still reluctant. But at this stage, according to Zinni, Musharraf stepped in and convinced Sharif to be more receptive to the U.S. proposal.
It was Musharraf who lost his nerve. No civilian leader in Pakistan has the authority to defy his COAS, as history has shown.
Haris - pls recalibrate your history of Kargil.
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as i said before munna u and and ur other bhindians can keep on crying on what happened at kargil…hum rotay nahin apnay shaheedon pe because we know how esteemed their position is …we are proud of them…I am sure their widows and children will be proud of them too…the whole point of this thread is that ur bhindian mates started crying about kargil after 5 years…surely zakhm bahut gehrey hain aap logon ke…don’t try to hide them by showing that u r worried about our men who died…those men knew that they were in a suicide mission they were not worried about their life…isliye i said before ke tum nahin samjho ge bacha ke
shaheed ki jo maut hai woh qaum ki hayaat hai
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Oh, and guess what the Indian’s were forced to talk to that “tin-pot” general, Pakistan’s economy is growing at over 8% - not bad for a banana republic huh?, while India’s growth rate is plummeting, and you guys are softening up the LOC, which is exactly what Kargil aptly proved. Now you guys are thirsty for energy resources to sustain your economy, and you need pipelines from Iran and the CAR’s through Pakistan. For that you will have to be get soft on Kashmir, and then let it gently, gently slide away, hoping that your public don’t notice, oh and stop building shrines to the hundreds of Indian soldiers who were killed in Kargil, and tens of thousands injured or humiliated. 
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Homer,
Whatever man. If you guys were so proud of the shaheeds, then why does your govt deny they were even there. Where is the honour beta? Can you point to a PA site that lists them and how and where they were killed - ALL of them?
It is easy for people like you to sit and enjoy because a few Punjabi generals were too afraid to go up and sent some Gilgitis as cannon fodder. How many relatives of yours even saw Kargil? When someone else dies, its always easy to enjoy, eh?
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the events set in motion by the kargil debacle effectively turned pakistan from a democracy to a military dictatorship satellite of the US (subtract US aid and the real growth rate will be no more than the usual 4%). it is amazing how pakistanis still are happy at the outcome of the conflict given how they singlehandedly initiated it, suffered casualties an order of magnitude higher than the indian side, wrecked its fledgling institutions to a long span of dictatorship, crippled constitutional powers in long term consequences, and abandoned the entire kashmir militant project. is it any wonder pakistanis with their blind views have been unable to learn to rule themselves?
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Nawazu had defied and destroyed every other institution in Pakistan, and by the time of Kargil he thought he could do the same with the army. His whole reign is marked by him panicking, and the taking rash and unilateral actions, not having the stomach to see things through to the end. Again, months after Kargil he tried to defy the army chief again, by trying to sack him while he was in mid-air, but this time he went too far, as we all know.
Re: Out of Kargil
haris & homer,
I can understand your anxiety to restore some honor to your country and military. However neither deserves any of it.
Your military stands discredited and shamed for not achieving the objective of the kargil incursion (remember your famous joker musharaf and co claiming it wasn’t really them but the mujahideen? 
even trusted Chinese uncle taped his admission and released it for the world to hear!)
And your country stands discredited and shamed for being at the clutches of such impotent military that cannot set objectives, stand up and admit the objectives and achieve it! Potent warriors stand tall even in defeat - they do not run away and blame ‘mujahideen’
What exactly was the objective of the kargil? what have you achieved? just an additional corraboration that pakistan is a jealous satellite in the region!