Out of Kargil

Re: Out of Kargil

In the early days of the war, Army chief General Ved Prakash Malik reportedly told a senior commander that his (the officer was also the colonel commandant of one of the regiments fighting in Kargil) boys were not fighting bravely.

Three batallions ignored as nation honours martyrs of Kargil

Josy Joseph in New Delhi

It took courage, grit and many hundred lives to keep the Indian flag flying over the icy heights of Kargil. A year after the end of the 45-day Kargil war, on Wednesday, the government will pay homage to the martyrs of the conflict. However, three army units posted at Kargil when the intrusion was first detected – the 121 Infantry Brigade, under the command of Brigadier Surinder Singh, consisted of the 4 Jat, 3 Punjab and 16 Grenadiers – have not been honoured with a single medal for their involvement in the operations. Not a single soldier from these three batallions featured in the list of gallantry award winners in 1999.
The list was otherwise reflective of the government and army headquarters’s desire to commemorate the Kargil victory. There were four Param Vir Chakra winners, several other soldiers who won other gallantry medals, but none from the 121 Infantry Brigade. Lieutenant General H B Kala, Colonel Commandant of the Jat Regiment, wrote to Army Headquarters protesting this. He pointed out that the 4 Jat Battalion lost two officers and 19 soldiers and took part in several gallant operations during Operation Vijay. Army HQ responded to Lt Gen Kala on expected lines. Vice-Chief of the Army Staff Lt Gen Chandrasekhar wrote back, saying the three battalions needed to be pulled up for their failure in detecting the Pakistani intrusion.

This was not the first disagreement among the Army’s top brass. **In the early days of the war, Army chief General Ved Prakash Malik reportedly told a senior commander that his (the officer was also the colonel commandant of one of the regiments fighting in Kargil) boys were not fighting bravely. The comments were made when there were high casualties and few battlefield successes. The question about who should be blamed for the high, initial casualties remain. The soldiers went into battle without proper reconnaissance and intelligence inputs. Many commanding officers of battalions pleaded with senior commanders not to send their boys up the hills to be murdered. According to reliable sources, at least one CO posted at Kargil during the initial days of the operation, was transferred for refusing to obey his commander’s orders. The officer was later demoted – stripped of a star – to Lt Colonel rank. His present posting is not known. **

The 8 Sikh Battalion deserves special mention. The battalion, which was moved to the Kargil theatre, participated in several key operations. In early June when Tiger Hill caught the nation’s imagination, 8 Sikh was asked to capture the peak. Despite repeated attempts by its troops and several score casualties, the regiment could not succeed. It was only after a brigadier was deputed to plan the Tiger Hill operation, with detailed intelligence inputs, that Tiger Hill was finally captured on July 4, 5, 1999. It came after twenty soldiers and an officer were given special training in high altitude warfare by trainers from the High Altitude Warfare School in Sonmarg.

Re: Out of Kargil

according to your logic, how can Nawaz Sharif run to US if Pakistan does not accept its soldiers are in kargil? You are contradicting yourself. YOu are saying on one side that Pakistan did not accept its soldiers were in kargil, on the other hand you are saying Pakistan went to US to help us get out of kargil? Sorry dude, you are too smart for me to understand you.

Re: Out of Kargil

What can India do if Musharraf chickened out and sent his PM to DC, send people to shoot down Sharif’s plane? If you read Clinton’s clear statement - there was no mediation there. The US wanted to intervene and save Pakistani butts and get Indian goodwill. When your enemy surrenders, do you say “no jee we want to fight?” :smiley:

The US met with people in Pindi and Isloo. India had no say in that. The US never sent anyone to Kargil.

It was July, India was just 40 days into its campaign to get back the posts. Winter starts no earlier than September there. So we still had 60-70 days of good conditions. India was in no hurry. I gave you links from Pakistani army and other military experts - insiders, who say that PA panicked because it was losing posts that it thought were safe. The main US liason man Gen.Zinni, says Musharraf backed out first, so do other US accounts. There are other reports too, one from Herald Magazine in late 1999 which said that NLI families were revolting in Ghizer, Skardu and Gilgit and wanted either resuplly or withdrawal.

The facts are clear. India did not ask for outside help. But when the US got the remaining Pak forces to pull back, India had no reason to say no. It ended up saving lives on both sides.

Re: Out of Kargil

The type of soldiers we are talking about are the ones experienced in high-altitude warfare. Even the report that spoke of PA men killing Indians like dogs etc. mentioned that many Punjabi officers without prior mountain warfare experience could not cope with the altitude and some in fact died of HAPO.

Re: Out of Kargil

ProudyPak…you are at the wrong side of the game…know nothing of Kargil war and Pak propaganda.

So, what were the notes briefing of Sharrif in meeting with Clinton…Sir, our soldiers who are actually not our soldiers are killing Indian soldiers and for that reason can you help our soldiers who are actually not our soldiers to make a withdrawal.

Re: Out of Kargil

The Indian generals, political establishment and guppies do not want to know about likes of Brigadier Surinder Singh, who try to expose the full scale of India’s humiliation at Kargil. In fact they did not have much care for the soldiers , hence provided them with cheap kit, only bought them second rate caskets to bury their dead, and then deprived many of their “hero” medals. The Chief of the Army Staff General V.P. Malik, for one, saw no reason to cut short his week-long visit to Poland when Indian soldiers were being slaughtered on the peaks, and dismissed Indian soldiers as not fighting bravely.

Re: Out of Kargil

So you are saying that Sharif went to US and said that we are not fighting a war and our soldiers are not occupying any post, but we want you to help our soldiers vacate the posts? what posts, because Pakistan is denying any troop involvement? Yu must be a genius to come up with this crap. But i am glad you believe whole heartidly on it. As i said before, dil ko khush rakhnay ko ghalib, yeh khayal acha hay.

Re: Out of Kargil

Anjjan you might think i dont know because i dont believe the crap you believe in. I know people that were involved there.

Re: Out of Kargil

Ofcourse you do want to fight. As per you, IA was getting posts every day and would have cleared all the posts and killed many PA soldiers that attacked India. Why would you let them go? Come on dont give me the India loves peace BS. And US wanted Indian good will. I mean i know that US economy is run on Indian money and without US good will, clinton would have lost his presidency. Thanks for making me laugh.
The fact is that Pakistan left the posts under US pressure. Whether NS went on his own or PM sent him there, is a different story.

Re: Out of Kargil

Man if an enemy surrenders or retreats, will any professional army go and kill them just for kicks? This is not about loving peace or senti setuff like that, it is common sense. When an enemy retreats, you let him and you take over the area he vacates. It is warfare 101.

Re: Out of Kargil

No wonder the Indian COAS dismissed his soldiers as not brave, if they were just going to try Bollywood tactics in Kargil, like the below.

http://www.mumbai-central.com/nukkad/aug2001/msg00061.html

**40 Indian army officers face inquiry for futile attacks on Pakistan: **

ISLAMABAD, Aug 03: At least 40 officers of Indian Army face Courts of Inquiry on charges ranging from failure of command and control to cowardice and desertion, during fruitless attacks on various Pakistani posts. A report in Indian Magazine “Out Look” under the caption of “War and Watch-Hunts” says these army officers include ranks of Major and below, Junior Commissioned Officers and jawans. It says "None of the generals, whose duty it was to conduct the war is facing any official inquiry for their flawed leadership. Instead, two of them have been decorated and awarded with plum posting. This has triggered enormous resentment among the junior officers and men.

This is the first time in the history of the Indian Army that such a large number of inquiries have been initiated against officers and men. **But when allegations in the press and Parliament surfaced that the top brass had mismanaged the Kargil operations, the generals concerned were quick to launch a cover-up operation. The ploy they used was to selectively target battalions entrusted with the most difficult of tasks- charging up the mountain to evict the “freedom fighters” perched atop, a strategy built around high human cost. Other top targets are officers and men of those battalions charged with failing to detect the take over while the top brass ignored the early warnings of heightened enemy build-ups. The blame has been placed solely on those deployed in Kargil. Even the Subrahmanyam Committee talks of overall intelligence failure. **

According to a serving general, more planning should have preceded the sending of men up the treacherous mountains. The suggested plan of action was to take positions on the sides of the hills, launch an aerial attack and starve the freedom fighters. Then final assault should have been followed. But the Army Chief, under pressure from a political leadership, wanted quick results. One senior officer recalls the chief’s brief: “I want the war over quickly, whatever the cost.” As a result, troops were sent on suicidal missions. Some of those who retreated in the face of heavy freedom fighters’ fire are precisely those currently branded as cowards." The magazine quoted a senior general at army headquarters as saying," It was a foolhardy battle, which sent officers and men to certain death. Junior officers have been made scape-goats since the seniors who bungled are known to be close to the chief." Junior officers posted in the Leh-Kargil-Batalik region are outraged that the generals should get away.

The man who orchestrated this unprecedented campaign is former Chief of Army Staff Gen. V.P. Malik, who issued a show-cause notice to Brig Surinder Singh, the then commander of the Kargil based 121 Brigade, asking why he shouldn’t be dismissed from service for his various acts of “commission and omission.” The irony is that Malik himself was accused of taking the Kargil issue lightly and going on a ’ goodwill’ visit to Poland and holidaying in Europe even after it was known the freedom fighters had taken over the heights. Officers in the Judge Advocate General’s branch have told media persons that all the officers and men facing the Courts of Inquiries are likely to be let off with a mild reprimand and they should not be hasty in rushing to civilian courts. Clearly, Army Headquarters is apprehensive that those being targeted will move the courts. In Srinagar, officers are aghast that there has been selective victimisation even of JCOs. “JCOs simply follow the orders of their immediate superiors. By targeting them, the seniors are only demoralising the vital link between officers and ORs (other ranks) personnel,” a major pointed out.

Re: Out of Kargil

ProudPak, are you really serious. all arround the game pakistan was making one and uniqe statement that it had no involvement in Kargil........and to prove that your General refused to recognize and pick up the dead bodies of your soldiers.

On refusal of the dead bodies of Pak martyres, everyone from your side has told us a different theory......what is your fantasy?

Re: Out of Kargil

for the umpteenth time; denying and accepting, all depends on the intelligence aspect of any operation...for instance, Indian army and govt at this moment will deny the fact that there is a 'freedom' struggle going on in Kasmir...the world sees otherwise and worries, but India says its just terrorism. where did the terror come from...? India is free to recognize, accept or deny as per requirement...They may deny the presence of any Indian spies in Pakistan...both denials would be false and unethical, but such is politics and intelligence...it's almost second nature to all operations, i'm surprised how India has made a huge deal out of it...
while in everyday life sending a spy to a neighbor's home to find out what they eat and earn would be disgusting and unethical, it's an accepted crude part of war culture, diplomacy, politics etc and has almost been second nature through out history...in war the one who strikes harder wins, not the one who runs after morals and ethics...Muslim warriors, Hindu warriors all know this and accept it...so let's move over whining about Pakistan's denials...this denial was nothing compared to te denial India is living with for almost 60 yrs...

Re: Out of Kargil

Haris, I hereby reject your claim…freedom strugles have some ethics,… freedom fighters include all ethnic and non-ethnic groups…show me a single Hindu, Sikh or Buddhist in your esteemed freedom strugle, re Kashmir.

We can further scrutinize how many Muslims of Kashmir actually support what you call freedom strugle.

Re: Out of Kargil

Anjjan look at the pictures of hurriat people leaving Kashmir and yu will get your answers. More then 50 years go by and you are still living in denial.

Re: Out of Kargil

50 years of spending money to keeping kashmiri blood flowing in the valley and still no consquences. very sad indeed.

Re: Out of Kargil

incorrect. the “world” sees it as pakistani terrorism…your musharaf has had to repeatedly concede that …your ‘diplomat’ MS.Syeda said last week ‘we used to call them mujahideen then…’…

sorry Harris … but for 9/11, pakistan would be under international reformation program right now..

Re: Out of Kargil

Yeah, Anjaan is right.. State sponsered terrorism is ok (read India), while non state sponsered terrorism is... Screwed up world we live in.
Its all relative, India is India, thats why they dont have to answer to anyone.

Re: Out of Kargil

Anjaan, no Muslim in India occupied Kshmir wants to be India no mater how much you wish they did.. Your countries made a mess over there. So grow up and smell the Sh!t!

Re: Out of Kargil

Can you tell us what the following means..

** The conflict was ultimately resolved as Prime Minister Nawaz Shareef buckled under pressure from the US president Bill Clinton and ordered a retreat of all Pakistani forces from Kargil. **