Re: Out of Kargil
Bhai meray, yeh aap nay kiya pooch liya? You will get a list of 10 articles and none of them will have the answer. Good luck..
Re: Out of Kargil
See, I told you that you need a refund from your high school. 
Re: Out of Kargil
Yeah, man. Hard isn’t it? When it is proven that it was Musharraf who had the cold feet and not Nawaz, it may all seem irrelevant. Better stick to the fictional theories.
Re: Out of Kargil
I knew it, you don’t know what it means. BTW what schools did you attend? You got cheated…
Ask a Guppy for translation
Here it is again…To make it easy its now in two parts.. 
Part One
** The conflict was ultimately resolved as Prime Minister Nawaz Shareef buckled under pressure from the US president Bill Clinton **
Part Two
** and ordered a retreat of all Pakistani forces from Kargil. **
Re: Out of Kargil
mo293…So far no one from your side has confirmed us when did Pakistan recognize that your armed soldiers were fighting in Kargil?
You must have information that your General and Govt refused to pick up dead bodies of your soldiers in Kargil…
Can you tell us the reason, as everyone from your side has either escaped this question or has given some funny replies?
After that I will inform you how Clinton asked your PM to refrain from blackmailing.
Talwar,…dont you think that you will have to explaine all abcd to every new entrant in this thread.
Re: Out of Kargil
I did not ask you to beat around the bush which I am sure will continue till the cows come home…
Re: Out of Kargil
Firstly, you may not even deserve a refund.
Secondly, that stuff was taken from wikipedia which anyone with any knowledge of the internet knows is a site where ANYONE can enter anything on ANY topic.
Try again.
Re: Out of Kargil
I got the picture buddy!!! Thanks…
Re: Out of Kargil
Because Our soldiers were fighting for their countries in battle where they knew that such were the consequences.. Our soldiers dont wine and B1tch about circumstances and consequences. Its must be our superior martial tradition:)
Re: Out of Kargil
Re: Out of Kargil
Our version of history is clearly not India's, and what Indians know as facts is indeed what we call false...so i dont see any signs of reaching some common ground...
statements such as;
*"learn your history better" or
"you deserve a refund from school" or
"we have to teach everyone the ABC here" *
say enough about what youre trying to pitch here...try and try but like you're unable to perceive our stance one bit, we remain aloof to your claims that root from sheer ignorance and avoiding looking at the real problem that creates all troubles...
sure your versions are stories to us that we need to learn from scratch, we know and believe in our versions, you do in yours. if it stays that way great crying for peace...and round and round in cricles we keep going for another 50 and then another 50 yrs...
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Haris, your generosity has no sense here. You learn from history or not, it is secondary. Just have a look at this discussion. You and your co make efforts to prove the martyrdom of your soldiers at Kargil and how Pakistan had to give up to the Clinton wish…..but no one could tell us ‘if and when’ Pakistan recognized that its soldiers were fighting at Kargil.
Your side is still engaged in finding reasons for the adventure at Kargil…….what actually your country achieved; the topic is pending for a start.
Re: Out of Kargil
anjjan if you and your side would ever properly bother reading and understanding the many posts showing our perspective you would know more about where the discussion has come...
and as far as Pakistan'as admitting presence of regular army up there goes, its not even a question anymore, what do you think, the GHQ would have issued a newsletter decalring its presence published in every newspaper or should they have printed fliers...? they openly awarded gallantry medals including two of the nation's highest right in June-July 99...wasnt that admitting enough...? reports were published openly in all media. an Indian battalion commander reccomended Capt Sher Khan for a gallantry award, that made huge news too...
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haris bhai why are u still discussing the issue with them…who cares what they think…let them cry…the thread is going around in circles…we all know that indians are still whining and crying over this war…hence they open this thread because they wanna prove something to us pakistanis …u know that their opinions abt pakistan are biased and will never change…don’t worry abt these bhindians
Re: Out of Kargil
Thanks Haris, indirectly, but at last you can agree that right from the begining your PM and General were lying. Your PM lost his seat after this war and the General became CE.
What the world can expect from a nation whos outgoing and incoming rulers had no gutts to accept the truth?
Is this that Pakistan actually achieved out of this war?
Homer, Indians know many fantastic words to decorate the good name of Pakistan and its citizens. Would you and moderator like to know these words?
Re: Out of Kargil
Haris, mo and others,
Since you don’t want to hear the truth from us, how about from a PA General? It looks like not telling the truth, overestimating your own ability and denigrating the enemy is part and parcel of Pakistan army’s “tradition”
No wonder you guys try and try and lose and lose.
Ghosts from the past
Sher Khan
Gohar Ayub’s recent revelation about a major intelligence coup by Pakistani agencies nearly half a century ago seems to have raised quite a storm in the Indian media. It has had a lukewarm response in the local media. He has stated that the Pakistani intelligence penetrated the Indian Army’s Military Operations Directorate, and got a senior officer, a brigadier no less, to sell detailed operational plans for the paltry sum of twenty thousand rupees so that his wife could indulge her hobby of canning vegetables.
Improbable as the revelation might sound, Mr Ayub has promised to divulge all the details of the Indian officer in question, reported to be still alive, in his forthcoming book due out later this year. In a television interview he said that short of revealing the officer’s name, he would divulge all other relevant details, after which it should be no problem to deduce the individual’s identity.
Mr Gohar Ayub is an honourable man, and so was his late father, but one wonders whether he read Shakespeare in his youth, or at least saw the movie about Julius Caesar. If so, he might recall the famous lines spoken by Mark Anthony (played by Jaffer Khan in Lawrence Hall during the mid-fifties at my alma mater in the Murree Hills): “The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred in their bones. So let it be with Caesar.”
Many who were behind the scenes in those fateful years have passed on; the remaining few would be in their dotage. However, those who took part in the war in 1965 as youngsters, such as this writer, number in the thousands. The scoop, if that is the right word, and how the Pakistan Armed Forces benefited from it, would surely evoke memories of their bit parts in those cataclysmic days, and how they saw events unfold. For many, this will be at variance with what appears to be the case in Mr Ayub’s interview.
It is only right and proper that Gohar Ayub narrate events as he saw or perceived them, but those who have a different perception or viewpoint must also narrate their side of the story, and then let the readers draw their own conclusions. It should make for a lively debate, and perhaps the full truth may emerge in the process. When trying to put a glorious spin on the deeds of one’s near and dear ones in a show of filial loyalty, one always risk not being entirely objective.
To come back to the intelligence coup, if indeed the claim is based on facts, and if the detailed plans Mr Ayub mentions were not a plant to mislead Pakistani intelligence, one would expect that the then senior commanders would have been much better prepared for the Indian attack across the international boundary in 1965. In the event, Lahore just barely escaped being captured, thanks to the junior leadership and Allah, artillery and air force. 
The whole strategy to free Indian Held Kashmir was based on a false premise, as later events so glaringly confirmed. The senior leaders totally misread the Indian resolve to retain what they claimed was theirs, and conveniently sought a scapegoat in the United States’ withdrawal of military support, which was never there in the equation of mutual defence in the first instance.
No lesson seemed to have been learnt from this experience, as the authors of the Kargil operation learnt to their dismay; for this they had to beg for US intervention. :hehe: Having been taught the principles of war at various stages of one’s military career, one cannot seem to recall ever having been taught to question the officially certified truth or doctrine, nor some few basic home truths, such as: God is on the side of the bigger battalions. 
Never underestimate the enemy, nor over-estimate your own capabilities. During a lecture to the 1981 Armed Forces War Course, in which Gen, then Lt Col, Musharraf was a student along with this writer, the then CGS held forth that one Pakistani soldier was equal to ten Indians! :rolleyes:
Learn from the enemy’s mistakes, and from our own. Hope is not a factor in military planning.
So now that the late Field Marshal’s name is back in the news (though some continue to question his rank), what is his legacy? Industrialisation would be one, although it gave rise to the twenty-two families. Land reforms, even if half-hearted, would be another. So would be gerrymandering with the political system and the intervention in affairs of state by the Army. And on a pedestrian level, appointing one’s own sons and sons-in-law as ADCs until a suitable opening is created in the elite CSS, a practice that continues to thrive today.
Perhaps there is a case after all for leaving skeletons in the closet, and not bringing back ghosts from the past.
The writer is a retired army brigadier based in Rawalpindi.
Re: Out of Kargil
This Brig who had been Mush's batch mate in 81 has the down side to narrate, had he been selected for promotion to the 2 star rank with Mush he would have had a diff perspective...
sure there are blunders everywhere, even in India...
so does all this mean India should remain aloof, kill, kill and just kill...? and so much for losing...Losers dont panic about the winners as much as India panics over everything relating to Pakistan...
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yeah, there seems to be no point going on…
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This is an oppinon, but resolve or not, India still their butts kicked.
But you should be ashamed of yourself. I mean, you are proud of a stalemate (1965) against an enemy 1/10th your size. Its like being proud of beatng a ten year old in a fight. We on the other hand, being 1/10th your size are quite happy to have embarrased you. You should thank Allah, Bagwan, the Guru’s, whoever you want that we werent closer to your size or otherwise we would have taken Kashmir over night. This is exactly why the Indians didnt allow us our share of military equipment after partiotion.. Fear that we would be to big for them to handle;)
So good reson to overestimate our own capability:)
Re: Out of Kargil
Please, enlighten us:hehe: