Out of Kargil

Re: Out of Kargil

Yes Harris.. the point is India is ready but tell me who is the aggressor here. Did Pakistan did the right thing by invading.. Was there a peace process going on. If Pakistan was threatened by Indian forces its acceptable. But invading at the least expected time , it drives a fear in Indian minds that all these peace thing are drama.. and Pakistan can attack India at any point.
If India had done similar thing..would Pakistan ever come back to the negotiating table.
Look Indian is vast country.. rivven with diversities.. India is insecure.. what normal people want is peace and this would guarentee prosperity for them. And what India require is a stable pakistan for that.

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kargil showed that we can beat anybody only if we somehow can get rid of our munifaq leaders and coward army generals

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I agree on this point… Thats the only reason I regret Kargil.. THE TIMING!

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And if your wishes were horses you could be a cowboy…

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Complete scenario of Kargil was a Pak fiasco. Pak generals were busy in day dreaming...their army dreamt of full of bravery occupied the post at high hills as snow melted before the Indian posts could reach their....the people of Kashmir revolts and join the brave Pak army....the brave pak army and the Generals are injected to believe that Indian soldiers know nothing of resistance, will give up and run for their homes...Indian songs are the reason...whereas the jihadi army will march further....

Alas...nothing such thing happened....the brave Pak soldiers could fight till they were at high altitudes....no sooner the Indian army made its way to the hills...the slogan fed jihadis ran away back to safe places....they forgot their suicidal songs. The poor brave soldiers were not allowed to pick the dead bodies of their friends by their own Generals.

Tell me if the scenario was a little different!

Today an inferiority complex has become a problem, that they find fault with anything Indian, even with films and filmi songs.

Re: Out of Kargil

Haris,

What anjjan says above is true.

Contrary to what you claim, I and most Indians do not think that Pak military is bad or inferior. We have every bit of respect for them.

But the sad fact is that Pak military is full of people who continue to believe that Indians, especially Hindus, are cowards and inferior to them and are unable or unwilling to put up a good fight. They keep underestimating Indian will and ability. I remember reading in Brian Cloughley’s book on PA which lamented the fact that in 1965, some Pak officers fought with the idea that if they said the Kalma loudly, Indians would just run away. :rolleyes:

This underestimation is what led to Kargil. I remember some of the articles in Pak papers during Kargil time. Virtually every op-ed by a Pak military person spoke of poor Indian skill or morale or both. After the disaster, the same people conveniently put the blame on the civilian leadership so that they can continue to believe in their theory of India.

The only thing Kargil proved is that Pakistani army refuses to learn from history.

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And the sad fact from our perspective is that Indian military and govt is full of ppl who refuse to recognize the bones of contention, set aside their egotistic claims over territories-which have caused bloodbaths retaliations and revolts and leaves the people of a particular area struggling to be heard-and even after almost 60yrs treat Pakistan like an unwanted sibling, fail to abandon their application of force to press down on the 'terrorists' and close their eyes and pray for an end to violence without paying attention or agreeing to accept the roots of all evil and are victims of paranoia thinking that they have been righteous all along and hence are free to crush all revolting voices becaue those demanding what they demand are evil and have no right to demand what they demand. Why is that? I'm not sure, but everyone knows atleast one thing and i'd hope youd agree too, India hasnt been an angel either and it was India that planted the seeds for the dispute; so India ought to reap the fruit of what it sowed over half a century ago. If refusing to address the main source of dispute and fussing over the fringe benefits that came with it i.e. riots and armed conflicts and what's called 'terrorism' and imagining that addressing the fringe benefits only and crushing them would bring a perpetual solution to the problems, then i'm afraid all our side is left with to say is simply that after all India refuses to accept the core issues...and refuses to learn lessons from 60 years of troubles.
So I'd think if we keep going on with our perspectives and one wouldnt hear the other's and draw no conclusions we keep going round and round in circles...sad indeed...

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Haris..whatever you have written is correct, may be some Indians may object to some of the points, but base idea is faultless..

But how does it justify the artificial war at Kargil, which took away many precious lives on both the sides?
Will you or your Generals be able to come out of sleep?

Reza....I am still waiting to know how many soldiers did your army loss at Kargil.

Re: Out of Kargil

Yes he did. But India may have lost upto 3500 soldiers at Kargil, as that is the amount of body bags and coffins they ordered? No wonder there was such anger at the large number of body bags returning home to places like Rajasthan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/south_asia/2049292.stm

Rajasthan’s anger over Kashmir body bags

Despite reduced tensions between India and Pakistan emotions are running high in the Indian border state of Rajasthan as the coffins of soldiers killed on the Kashmir frontline are brought back home. Funeral processions of the dead soldiers have become common in Rajasthan, which has been producing soldiers and warriors for centuries. Every week, the bodies of two soldiers are brought back to the state, a significant increase since the Kargil conflict three summers ago. Last week, the state capital Jaipur witnessed a massive turn out of local citizens for the funeral procession of army officer Lieutenant Abhay Pareek, killed near the Line of Control in Kashmir. Thousands participated in the funeral procession despite intense heat in the city and filled the air with anti-Pakistan slogans.

Anger

Jaipur’s ancient quarter was completely shut down as people queued-up in the market to pay their respects. As the procession passed through the city streets in a military parade, local residents showered flowers on the coffin. All this took place even as India decided to recall its warships from near the Pakistan coast, in an attempt lower tensions. Inflamed passions marked the procession and even members of the right wing Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) did not hesitate to criticise their own leader, Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee, for “his soft stand on Kashmir”. “I am so upset with the performance of our leaders in federal government,” said Yogesh Mathur, a young BJP member. “How will we face the public?” he asked, referring to the party’s climbdown from it’s tough Kashmir policy.

Military tradition

Most of the dead soldiers came from rural Rajasthan.

The Shekhawati and Western Rajasthan regions produce many of the soldiers serving in the Indian army. During World war I, nearly 14,000 soldiers served from the then princely state of Jaipur. There are 400,000 retired defence personnel in Rajasthan and more than 100,000 war widows. As a result, any shifts in the relationship between India and Pakistan has a fallout in Rajasthan which has a 1,040 Km long border with Pakistan. According to Bhagwan Singh, chief of the state’s Soldier’s Welfare Board, Rajasthan has 235 men serving in the armed forces since the Kargil conflict. “Despite this the [killing] does not stop, every week two soldiers lose their lives while fighting for the nation,” he said.

Looking for a solution

Relatives of those killed say the hostility should come to a logical end. Parvati Kanwar, 24, lost her husband Sharvan Singh Shekhawat. She says both countries should sit together and put an end to the killing. Bhagirath Singh, a retired soldier who had lost his son during the Kargil conflict, also expressed his anger over the government’s handling of the situation.

Re: Out of Kargil

Hindu’s telling us they showed dignity to Muslim soldiers in Kargil? They must have shown them this sort of dignity?

[thumb=H]muslims25047_3475806.JPG[/thumb]

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Now Reza in collaboration with many of his co-citizens will bring many web links to prove how bad the Indian side is….
But all his fellows including himself will never tell us…..

  1. Why Pakistan disown its dead soldiers at Kargil?

  2. Why Pak brave soldiers ran for safe places at home when Indian army made a way to the hills?

  3. How many soldiers Pakistan actually lost at Kargil?

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Pakistan sent 5,000 soldiers, of whom more than 2,700 were killed and the rest retreated in humilation.

All for nothing but the blunted pride of a few incapable and irresponsible PA generals.

As the neutral links I've posted above illustrate, Indian Army outthought and outblasted the PA after the initial surprise factor. The only thing PA proved is that it can occupy empty posts and cannot hold on to them when challenged.

Too bad, Pak pride won't let them admit the difficult facts.

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round and round in cirlces we go...

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Actually Haris, you are right. Might as well put this thread out of its misery.

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Humiliation! What a joke! You should be glad they left, or they would still be up there and you would be still be trying to get them to leave!!!
As for Pride, we have more in comman then either one of us is willing to admit:)

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Amen brother:) Ive been waiting for an Indian to fess up to the basic fact that Kashmir problem today is for the most part a result of their govt flawed policies.
And this from a secular democracy.. Come on!

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I could care less about India.. But, we are inextricably tied down to it by Kashmir. And so long as the Kashmir issure fessters, we will continue to have a bone to pick with India.
IF ours is an inferiorty complex as you put it, then India’s is an arrogant, self obsesive, over estimation of ones own worth complex, with a tinge of paranoi to give it flavor.
Tell me, if were the ones obsesivly trying to find faults in India to cover up our insecurity, then why are you Indian on our site? We didnt come to you, you came to us..

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Every single neutral analysis and even the sole PA analysis says that Indian Army was able to evict the intruders by force starting early June and had cleared many posts before Mushy sent Nawaz to DC for a face saver.

Care to show a single neutral source that backs up your claim?

I thought so. :slight_smile:

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http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2001/06/03/stories/0303000b.htm

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Kashmir…Kashmir…Kashmir…Once upon a time your anthem was…Khalistan…Khalistan…Khalistan.