Re: Out of Kargil
you never cease to amaze me…you also suffer from ADD…? 
Re: Out of Kargil
haris, given that you think india is three times pakistan in size, it is a very valid query. ;)
imho, pakistanis almost never learn from their mistakes - especially when it comes to which hero to worship and how many u-turns to take. nawaz sharif was an elected leader - elected by a record majority in the history of pakistani democracy. took two days for him to hit rock bottom. half the nation still considers zia ul haq their savior. i dont expect them to realize the impact kargil has had on the history and future as a nation in the next two decades. as long as they know some hindus died, they are happy and content in their cesspool of broken institutions and a worthless constitution.
Re: Out of Kargil
^ and to top it.. they have a cladestinly acquired nuclear capabilities and flount it as if its a kind of a toy. Pathetic.!!!
what was their aim of Kargil. That could have easily escalated into a full fledged war. Do they ever care about their life. People who dont think that they have a future.. does such desperate acts. This was suicidal for Pak to beggin with. 
Re: Out of Kargil
Yeah is it any worse than your side?
At least 2,700 Pakistani soldiers were killed, of whom many were left to die by their Generals. Others were bombed to pieces because their air force refused to defend the skies.
And your army to this day denies it was even there. Can there be any other country that does this to its own soldiers?
Can there be anything worse than losing thousands and denying it ever happened?
Re: Out of Kargil
Well, thats what it means to be a Pakistani soldier, ours dont need medals or honors. Ours is not to ask why, ours is to do and die… If you dont like it, grow up.. Thats how the world works.
Our media never glorifies anything in Pakistan. Most of the accusations your making have already been made by most of our media people. I wasnt talking about what our generals do, im talking about the media. Media in Pakistan is brutaly honest. Most reputable media in the country is just as harsh as you.
In India your media, including and especially your mighty bollywood glorifies everything about India. Nothing in India is ever wrong, even turd is gold if its Indian. Thats why your industry and your media is so immature for the most part. They see nothing wrong with your society, it doesnt function as anything more then a mouthpiece to reflect your ego’s. Save for a few, Indian media for the most part is just childish.
Re: Out of Kargil
The Indian Defence Ministry ordered 3500 body bags and coffins from a U.S. firm during the Kargil war, which broke into almighty scandal involving the permanently angry George Fernandez. Now the question is why so, so many body bags? Maybe the true extent of the bloody nose that India received remains hidden from the Indian public - maybe a movie will be made one day about it? 
Re: Out of Kargil
What a big bunch of crock!
Ask a Pakistani journalist to write the truth about the details of ISI’s ties to jihadi and sectarian groups or the nuclear program or army corruption or details of the defence budget and he will get shot before he can say a word.
Criticism of govts is accepted in Pakistan if it is done in a general way and in English papers which have less than 100,000 copies in circulation.
Can you point to one newspaper that has spoken the truth about Kargil in its reporting? It’s all “mujahideen did it” nonsense. PTV lies daily about Kashmir. Urdu papers are full of daily BS and govt line.
Re: Out of Kargil
speaking of media and glorification, what does pak have thats worth any glory?
Re: Out of Kargil
According to the amount of body bags and coffins your government ordered, it seems that India lost probably upto 3500 soldiers in the Kargil war. This article gives us more insight into how shabbily Indian soldiers or heros as per your movies were really treated.
http://pd.cpim.org/2001/dec16/2001_dec16_edit.htm
Fernandes Must Quit!
GEORGE Fernandes is in the dock once again. The Comptroller and Auditor General’s (CAG) report on the procurement of supplies during the Kargil conflict reveals the sordid state of affairs in the Ministry of Defence, glimpses of which were seen in the Tehelka tapes. The stink arising out of senior military officers brazenly discussing the system of bribery on tape has hardly subsided, when the CAG report has come out with a scathing indictment of the systematic corruption and irregularities in the emergency procurement during “Operation Vijay” in May-June, 1999. The CAG report audited 123 contracts involving Rs. 2,163.09 crore. It found that supplies worth Rs. 1,762.21 crore, which constituted 81 per cent of the total expenditure, materialised six months after the operations in January, 2000. The report concludes: “Thus, while critical supplies of clothing, ammunition and arms could not reach the troops during the operation, an amount of Rs.1,046 crore, almost half of the total, entirely in foreign exchange, was spent fruitlessly, breaching established principles of propriety.”
The CAG report lists how purchases of a whole host of equipment were fiddled. They range from small arms, artillery ammunition, special clothing and other military equipment. Among the deals found violating procedures are the buying of handheld thermal imagers (Rs. 41.95 crore), terminally guided munitions (Rs. 151 crore), bullet proof jackets (Rs. 51.65 crore), anti-material rifles (Rs. 23.22 crore), flame throwers (Rs. 18.22 crore) and ammunition (Rs. 402.76 crore). **Nothing was sacrosanct for making money out of the jawans fighting in the Kargil war. The report found that 3,438 pairs of boots ordered for the soldiers, were of two smaller sizes, 5 and 6, not fit for adults; thus Rs. 1.85 crore was frittered away. The most shocking case is of the coffins ordered for transporting the bodies of soldiers who were killed in battle. The BJP-led government obviously believes swadeshi coffins are no good. The Ministry ordered coffins from an American company at the rate of US $ 2,500, i.e., Rs. 1.09 lakh per casket. The bid was obtained only from one firm and the price for this casket in 1994 was $ 172 per piece. Rs. 1.47 crore was paid for 150 caskets supplied, which is 90 per cent of the total amount to be paid. The entire lot of coffins was rejected during inspection as being overweight and not up to the specifications. **
No amount of explanation by the BJP-led government will convince anyone that coffins have to be imported from the United States. There are hundreds of industrial units in India which could have supplied suitable coffins at a hundredth of the price paid. Probably, the Vajpayee government believes that using American coffins is part of the heightened military collaboration with the United States upon which it has embarked. George Fernandes was re-inducted as Defence Minister in brazen disregard for propriety, while the Justice Venkataswami Commission was still enquiring into the Tehelka tapes exposure. Parliament has already seen strong protests on the issue and the Lok Sabha was scheduled to discuss the issue on December 18. Another significant development in this period was the decision of the BJP-led government to allow agents of foreign defence companies to return as middlemen in procuring defence equipment. The decision coincided with the return of George Fernandes. Defence procurement and the overall matter of defence can no longer be treated as a sacred cow not open to public scrutiny and discussion. George Fernandes recently refused in Parliament to answer a question on buying defence equipment from Israel on grounds of “national interest”. Such a stance cannot be accepted any more. Every defence contract and purchase of supplies must come under parliamentary scrutiny and full disclosure must be made by the government. The Kargil equipment scam is not only a shameful blot on the government, it is an insult to the armed forces and the country. The pseudo-nationalists have been exposed as the worst profiteers. This shameful episode will make all Indian citizens hang their heads in shame. But George Fernandes is unmoved. The only way to remedy the situation is to oust this dishonourable man as the Minister of Defence.
Re: Out of Kargil
Not much.. But atleast where honest about it. At the same time, Pakistani media do give credit when its due however rare. Pakistani media tends to be very critical, taking everything with a grain of salt. Judging from Indian media, you would think India is the garden of Eden…
Re: Out of Kargil
Thats Bull… We have our problems, but you people blow them out of proprtion… Lck of democracy doesnt always mean a dictatorship. The only problem with Pakistani Media is the lack of investigative journalism. The general lack of transperancy makes it very difficult to really find out anything. But media is free to critisize. And you know as well as I do that the media critism is quiet targeted. From the budget, to the NFC, to the lack of democratic institutions, to the so called moderate enlightenment, Pakistani journalist have been quite loud and poignent. In fact, Indians on this site have often refered to Pakistani articles to prove their point, since these articles are considered non biased. If you dont see this, well then your just blind. Your perception of Pakistan is tainted by the fact that you are an Indian who has been fed lies and distortions of our country from birth. Thats the power of your media. And you obviously havent been keeping up with developments in Pakistan, so you wouldnt know anyways. I would think that your country is far more babaric in some ways though…
Ptv is govt run so it doesnt count, Urdu news papers are low brow media in pak, and I admit they are, and when they say Mujahideen did it then thats being accurate, because by our understanding that what they are. You can call the terrorsits, but thats irrelevent.
English Newspapers have low circulation but regardless they represent some of our best journalist who are quite openly critical of the govt. Now to India… First I was talking more about your film industry… But lets talk about your papers. The only good media to have come out was Tehlka.com. They were the ones that busted Fernandez. Well where are they now? From what I heard they almost went out of bussines due to the pressure from your govt.
Who is reporting on all the corruption in your govt?
The majority of your papers seem clueless. Open the times of India and all you see are articles about Paris Hiltons new Pron comercial.. Come on!
But I was refering to your film industry in particular and Its complete lack of any real depth…
.
Re: Out of Kargil
And some how Fernandez got away with it!
Re: Out of Kargil
pakpatriot, which indian newspaper do you read? :)
Re: Out of Kargil
PP1, can you show me one Pakistani press report telling what the govt or army doesn't want to say about the details of the defence budget, assets of top army officers, what they did in Kargil etc.
Some jokers are posting here Indian press reports exposing possible corruption in the coffin deal. They don't realize that their country's national press or Urdu media will not dare talk of how money going to NLI men's families were skimmed by middlemen or stuff like that.
That is the difference.
Re: Out of Kargil
What did Pakistan achieve out of Kargil?
Hes got a point there man! No doubt we own and love who lost their lives fighting indian midgets but not much was achieved strategically...so im confident that next time pakistani military and civil establishments will come up with a better plan (open or COVERT) to get indian military midgts out of that territory that thet have unjustly occupied for so long...FREEDOM FOR KASHMIRIS
Re: Out of Kargil
Reza..thanks for all information.
As per your links report, India lost 474…or 650….or 3500 soldiers. We do not object to your findings.
How many soldiers did Pakistan loss, including or excluding those whom your General deserted at the front?
Very nice comments…You know when the snow was melting, some of your battalions occupied Indian sectors…there was a war…Indian army recaptured the territory…
Some of your soldiers died…what about the rest? I think they ran away back to safe areas of Pakistan.
Or all of them died at the front? As per your remarks they must have fought till death.
Re: Out of Kargil
you dont worry about it, there’s enough for patriotic Pakistanis to be happy with.
Re: Out of Kargil
exactly :k: indians can cry as much as they want on kargil
Re: Out of Kargil
here’s a map that shows; if not a literal 3 perhaps a 2.5. And when talking of a nation’s size i thought youd have known various aspects are taken into account, for instance oozing population…
[thumb=H]india18261_3674084.JPG[/thumb]
Re: Out of Kargil
How do you know all this…? RAW…? btw believing every other report about a scandal to be true doesnt show much reasoning does it?
and a general question for all indian members. discussion with reasonable debate is what you claim to be looking for however, reason is not something reflected by every post coming in. whats common everytime is sheer hatred and keenness on ridiculing Pakistan, trying to prove one way or the other somthng wrong with Pakistan, its people and its institutions. Indeed it has been this mindframe that has cost millions of lives and keeps the 2 countries from beoming friends. dont listen to the other side, have a superiority complex, live in your world, do your thing. why worry so much about Pakistan if youre never ready to accept it, never ready to respect it, never ready to learn and understand that there are certain things that are to be addressed by both sides and not just Pakistan alone. your side is NOT perfect. your side is NOT utopia. step out of that attitude and we just may have a better Indo-Pak connection everywhere. Going round and round in circles does no good.