Obsessed

[NeSCio]

Re: Obsessed

@hiccup

Feminsm is not about GS, the children of GS know as much as the real world as I do about about geography. Sitting and doing a degree doesnt give you a perspective in life and neither does notching up ages bed-post like. The women who are Feminists are those who have suffered for the belief that they are born equal. Women in Pakistan and Afraica, the women in Sudan, the victims of post war rape who continue to live and survuve in the belief that they too amount to something. Those acid attack victims who live only (now) to prevent further such attacks. That is feminism. The other connotations the PCG alikes would have us believe are sadly not only mistaken but damaging.

come on ppl, now a completely different, even opposite, definition is given of feminism. MehnazQ argues that even GS-ing feminism and hiccup says sitting in ur house is not feminism. You feminists should agree on one uniform definition…then the discussion is worth it. You change the definition just as it fits best into ur posts

[Mehnaz]

Re: Obsessed

Nescio, should we go with your definition of feminists instead? Frustrated lesbians who can't find themselves a husband? I remember you posted something along those lines a while back. That definition may work for you, it doesn't work for others. :)

[NeSCio]

Re: Obsessed

@MehnazQ

I can’t say what feminism is or “define” it cause the definition varies from person to person. In that case, how can I tell you what feminism is? I can only say what it does not represent for myself. It’s different for everybody.

then the whole concept of feminism is a mis-nomer. Wat’s the use of discussing between two ‘groups’ an entity where one of the groups between them can’t agree on what they are discussing.

It would be the same if we were having a discussion on animals and everyone had a different animal in mind, only vaguely agreeing on some aspects

[NeSCio]

Re: Obsessed

@MehnazQ

Nescio, should we go with your definition of feminists instead? Frustrated lesbians who can’t find themselves a husband? I remember you posted something along those lines a while back. That definition may work for you, it doesn’t work for others.

Actually I don’t remember this one directly, though I won’t deny that something along those lines might have slipped in a heated debate.

But irrespective of this, isn’t it strange to have a three page discussion on a concept noone agrees on?

I propose before we open another thread on feminism a definition on top is provided by the author, so we know within which frame of mind to discuss.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Obsessed

Feminism is exactly as hiccy describes it ( the “PCG version of feminism” - hiccup, you should know by now that I just like pissing off the mullah brigade out here).

You can’t even COMPARE the efforts that feminists have made over history to the destructive efforts of “mullahs”. It disturbs me that you would see the very people fighting for the rights of a woman to be allowed to live her life in peace without being raped, treated as a sex object, treated as a piece of property waghera as equivalent to people who want the whole world to be run on a socio-pol-economic structure they’ve designed out of their behinds and labelled as “Islam” and “Khalifat”.

In western countries, like I said, the trend has come far, and in these places all that feminists have left to do is argue over whether the term “man” or “mankind” should be used to describe all people.

Feminism is still necessary today, because not all countries are developed and not all of them have had the flavor of being moved out of their patriarchial ways.

And even within desis - even those who do live abroad - MOST families I would venture to say still harbor the sexist tendencies that feminists fight against. I see way too many girls being told that they should be satisfied in their roles as daughters, sisters, and wives and not to bother developing themselves.

Emancipation IS feminism. That’s the whole point of the movement, which you probably know jack shyte about anyway. Read feminist writings a bit more, and you’ll see that the “whiners” are only on the periphery. Take a look at NGO work in Pakistan and you’ll see plenty of reason for feminism to exist, and plenty of evidence that feminism is nothing like mullahism.

These feminists try to get their points across through various community projects, thru their writings, etc - and they are typically mature enough to know its a gradual process that requires change IN THE MINDS of men. I do not say women so much, because the minute a man realizes a woman’s worth and respects her as he would respect a man, then women would be RAISED knowing their worth.

After all, fathers play a big part in how a female sees herself. Actually, I would say the biggest role (perhaps even more so than the mother). A female will be conditioned to expect treatment from men as her father gave to her, in many cases. So, yes, feminists will target males because they need to accept the FACT that women should be respected as any other human.

I have two cousins who are lawyers and actively involved in NGO’s. The cases they bring to the table of abuse towards females… shudders

As to the Western countries, I’d like to say that even here feminism needs to do its work still. I’d say Islamic feminism has a great chance of fluorishing in the States and such places, since liberation has swung the pendulum to the extreme…liberated women are those in touch with their sexuality (that is fine - I dont think even Islam has a problem with that), and are willing to expose their bodies for a man’s pleasure (this second part I disagree with as a feminist and I think Islam does also). Yes, in these countries, a more balanced view of feminism is ripe to be introduced - hence why in the states - females are more rapidly converting to Islam than males.

Feminism is a very colorful movement. You have all kinds of characters in it. You cant judge the whole thing by a few troublemakers, just like you can’t judge all of Islam by the mullah brigade.

[NeSCio]

Re: Obsessed

@PyariCgudia

You can’t even COMPARE the efforts that feminists have made over history to the destructive efforts of “mullahs”. It disturbs me that you would see the very people fighting for the rights of a woman to be allowed to live her life in peace without being raped, treated as a sex object, treated as a piece of property waghera as equivalent to people who want the whole world to be run on a socio-pol-economic structure they’ve designed out of their behinds and labelled as “Islam” and “Khalifat”.

this is an unfair statement. Your statement says that the mild of group A are being compared to the ultras of group B. Nowhere did that happend. The comparisons made -at least by me- are the mild of both groups or the ultras of both groups.

In western countries, like I said, the trend has come far, and in these places all that feminists have left to do is argue over whether the term “man” or “mankind” should be used to describe all people.

exactly this is a subgroup of the whiners/ultras.

Feminism is still necessary today, because not all countries are developed and not all of them have had the flavor of being moved out of their patriarchial ways.

exactly, here you need the mild form of it, or as i name it emancipation (since everyone is using different definitions i might as well, at least i specify ;))

Emancipation IS feminism. That’s the whole point of the movement, which you probably know jack shyte about anyway. Read feminist writings a bit more, and you’ll see that the “whiners” are only on the periphery. Take a look at NGO work in Pakistan and you’ll see plenty of reason for feminism to exist, and plenty of evidence that feminism is nothing like mullahism.

again, an invalid statement. Here you agree that there are whiners in feminism, but are only at the periphery…on the other hand somehow you do generalize about mullahs (before commenting on this, do read the disclaimer i posted somewhere in this thread)

Feminism is a very colorful movement. You have all kinds of characters in it. You cant judge the whole thing by a few troublemakers, just like you can’t judge all of Islam by the mullah brigade.

Cutting your post short, I’ve known quite a few (self-proclaimed) desi feminists as well, and it is highly surprising to see that all of them after marriage have toned down or moreover actually taken a stance in the opposite spectrum than that of feminism. Makes me think why…

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Obsessed

probably because they're too busy cleaning up after their baby (aka husband).

[NeSCio]

Re: Obsessed

@PyariCgudia

probably because they’re too busy cleaning up after their baby (aka husband).

even if that’s true: why? if they’re so sure about feminism, this is highly disturbing for their cause

[Muslim_Queen]

Re: Obsessed

Nes you on a role today? I see you're done with hibernating. What did you drink today hain?

[hiccup]

Re: Obsessed

Nessy read carefully, I said sitting at home can be Feminism, it is all the right to choose how you live your life.

Read "And like I said, there are more than one type of feminist. White Upper class and obnoxious don't have the monopoly on fighting for equality..My very point was that we need to redefine that word to aply to the silent heros who are unsung and slandered do to unfair bunching and lableing."

I simply stated that we can not presume to know all about a casue such as feminism that has the deepest roots of supression of any prejudice.

I wonder why you are so irked by Feminism. Does it make you uncomfortable? :)

PCG, the thing is, in your jest you give Feminism a tainted name. It is ok for a joke, but when as part of your humour you start insulting my brother and father (who are btw men) I take it not so funnily. I guess its about a difference in humour.

[NeSCio]

Re: Obsessed

@Muslim_Queen

Nes you on a role today? I see you’re done with hibernating. What did you drink today hain?

i’d say this is a one-off day. just felt like adding some spice to the discussion

[LuxuryItem]

Re: Obsessed

@hiccup

PCG, the thing is, in your jest you give Feminism a tainted name. It is ok for a joke, but when as part of your humour you start insulting my brother and father (who are btw men) I take it not so funnily. I guess its about a difference in humour.

DON"T SAY THAT hiccup!!!

You must have a ‘PHD in domestic abuse’ too. You bad bad bad woman!

[Mehnaz]

Re: Obsessed

@NeSCio

Actually I don’t remember this one directly, though I won’t deny that something along those lines might have slipped in a heated debate.

But irrespective of this, isn’t it strange to have a three page discussion on a concept noone agrees on?

I propose before we open another thread on feminism a definition on top is provided by the author, so we know within which frame of mind to discuss.

You won’t really get any clear cut definition cause feminism, what it is now, how it’s implemented and what exactly it entails has a different meaning for everybody.

[hiccup]

Re: Obsessed

Nessy, it is about priorities. You know that. :)

[NeSCio]

Re: Obsessed

come on people. Now we're talking non-sense. We first fight three pages about 'feminism', and then in the end the only excuse you ppl can come up with is 'feminism is different for everybody'.

Wat the heck, I'd go even further then and say feminism doesn't exist, it's just a delusion

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Obsessed

^ Mehnaz, isn't that the whole point. For me, feminism is being able to drive myself the hardest that I can and no guy stopping me, in fact if anything, the male members of my family SUPPORTING me rather than not. Its being able to do what I like to do , which is multi-tasking, without being told ... "PCG, you're a girl, this is too much, you can't do this".

Only once ever someone in my life, and that too a woman - my phuphi - told me that I can't play cricket with the boys. That year I had visited Pakistan I got my period and grew some breasts. Everyone had noticed. So, at my daadi's house I was told to stay upstairs - I was not even let outside - and not come down because they knew I'd go str8 to my cousins and the neighbors' boys and play cricket with them.

I was bloody furious. So for me, battling against this narrow thinking is my form of feminism applied to my life. If I was living in Peshawar, it would be a totally different battle in nature. Its all relative to WHO you are, WHERE you are, and WHAT the VALUES are of that area.

Essentially feminism is freedom of choice - what men already have and have always had. But women have perpetually not had.

The funny thing is this: in Muslim countries, women are facing probably the most oppression. And THAT as a feminist irritates me to no bloody extent.

[hiccup]

Re: Obsessed

@NeSCio

come on people. Now we’re talking non-sense. We first fight three pages about ‘feminism’, and then in the end the only excuse you ppl can come up with is ‘feminism is different for everybody’.

Wat the heck, I’d go even further then and say feminism doesn’t exist, it’s just a delusion

OK,you say that, the last century worth of stuggle was hardly waiting to be validated by a farigh doc.

[Mehnaz]

Re: Obsessed

@NeSCio

come on people. Now we’re talking non-sense. We first fight three pages about ‘feminism’, and then in the end the only excuse you ppl can come up with is ‘feminism is different for everybody’.

Wat the heck, I’d go even further then and say feminism doesn’t exist, it’s just a delusion

Let’s put it this way, it’s too broad to narrow down into a rigid definition.

[NeSCio]

Re: Obsessed

@PyariCgudia

Nescio: For everything you need time. Not everyone is useless when they come home from work like you. Adding on the daunting responsibility of a desi husband - that is so much work that the likes of you could never appreciate it in a million years. So yes, its that time consuming that even a cause that they support so much gets held aside…just like much else in their lives.

beeeeeep goes

invalid statement again.
I asked how come all those girls change their stance on feminism after marriage, and you answer that they need time? Time for what? Clearly, not for developing their thoughts on feminism, cuz if they were true feminists, they wud have done that prior to marriage.
Actually the fact that these girls succumb to pressure coming from within themselves (do note that a large part of these girls are married to accoring to themselves ‘enlightened’ men, so you can’t say they got pressurized by their husbands), means that their feministic stances were just some vague ideas.
So no, come up with a better answer to my question, this seems more like an emotional response than a thought-over answer.

I’m big on “Saving Marine Mammals” campaigns. I doubt I’ll have the time for it later on, but it doesn’t mean that I’m any less of a supporter. I’d imagine its the same with with females who are big on feminism…they still are after marriage, they just get less vocal about it since all their vocal chords are spent yelling at their husbands and their children to help out around the house.

A non-argument. Won’t go into it. Read my point above.

[Miss_Mohabbat]

Re: Obsessed

This thread is like the carousel...your all just going around in circles and in the process forgetting that this is all about philosophy...you'd all make crap feminist philosophers :p