And the reason why they speak out is because 1. Men need to be TOLD to back off, because otherwise they wont back off on their own. They're too thick-headed. and 2. Because other women need to hear it - because there are too many women out there that think its "right" for a guy to put her in her place by ordering her around and dictating her life.
Guys who do that have very little control in their own affairs, and thus, they decide to run a woman's life so they can feel they are accomplishing SOMETHING, if nothing.
Nescio: So, no. The best feminists are those that do speak out. Because even now, there is too much ignorance in the world. And meanwhile, what of men who speak out? Dont you voice your opinion on issues here and there? Hypocrite.
Isn’t it wonderful as you look back at the accomplishments of the last 2 generations and feel this sense of pride and exhiliration, you feel more hopeful and ecstatic about the possibilities to come, attributing all the successes and accomplishment to the can-do/take-massive-action spirit of the genuine feminists; even though in the periphery of your thoughts, vision, there are always those “trendy feminists” who misrepresent and misinterpret the work you and yours did. OH well, they’ll disappear in time, don’t you worry.
in what respect does this differ from religious extremism? Aren’t the extremists doing the same thing to ensure their opinions are brought forth and policies affected? This situation is beautifully examplified in current Pakistan politics.
it took rallies and many (suicide or otherwise) bomb-blasts to get some attention focussed on the extremists ideas. I agree, the result has been different…so far. Feminists actually got some positive attention and extremists not. However, as things are going now feminists may soon be seen as the extremists/fundamentalists of emancipation.
this is the positive attention I’m talking about, but if the trend keeps on going like this we’ll have an over-representation of mediocre feminists in those position solely because of the political power of feminism. Just as mediocre mullahs are now in charge due to the political power of extremism
Are these gender based issues? Even gays and lesbian couples have such issues. I wonder who decides who is the dominant one in the couple (Who leads the dance) Majority of the times people point fingers at wrong reasons…Oh I am such and such (woman, muslim, black…etc) that’s why I got mistreated. Excuse me, but you got mistreated for your own actions
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Nescio: So, no. The best feminists are those that do speak out. Because even now, there is too much ignorance in the world. And meanwhile, what of men who speak out? Dont you voice your opinion on issues here and there? Hypocrite.
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do you see the parallel between this and arguments religious extremists use? they too say there is a lot of ignorance in this world, and using various techniques of expression (bomb-blasts) they try to bring forth their opinions.
As for me, yes i do voice my opinion here and there, but there is a difference in voicing you opinion so others know about it and by their judgment incorporate it or not and actually (implicitly) forcing them to accept it or face the consequences.
Not when the reasoning by these husbands or male family members or employers is simply because "well you're a female".
Its hard to understand these things now, because most of us live in societies where women have finally achieved a higher status than they had before. So, if you look at feminist theories now, they seem to be of women complaining and whining. But if you turn back time to see how women were treated and viewed commonly as property and nothing more, not just by individual men (although of course there are many exceptions), but categorically by the economy and state, then these feminists dont sound so nutty.
PD (Matsui) - I agree with this and been there, done that.
But I think these days feminism is becoming a bad word because of the nitpickers. I actually read an article written by a 'feminist' student (as she stated a few times) the other day in the University paper that stated that the use of the pronoun 'he' (in a general sense)reinforces the idea of a male dominated society and advocates for a pronoun in the English language to cover Transgendered people (rather than just using the gender they are/wish to be) and another to cover a mixed group of people. She also started that old mantra about God being a woman (we all know God is just that, God).
Frustrating because in my mind, the important stuff gets bunched along with the nitpicky stuff and dismissed because of people's perception of feminists today. And again, Nescio hit it on the head in a way. The feminists I know that created the most change were laid back, firm, soft-spoken, stubborn, and hands on as opposed to loud, abrasive, and obnoxious (the current trendy feminist).
BTW, here is a dodge Athletic Depts use for that Title IX money. The money is put into the woman's sport budget and then all mailings that are alumni based or development based for a particular sport (men and women both) are pulled from that budget. Also any development projects (banquets, sport telethons, gratis alumni merchandise) for any particular sport (men and women both) are pulled from and paid for by the Title IX monies in the women's budget. Travel is also pulled from the women's budget.
Now, with Alumni based contributions heavier in male dominated sports, why do you think this is done? The practices above severely cut into the budget of a Title IX women's sport leaving that sport in the same place it was before. Some of the woman's sports at this university (which is prohibited from offering athletic scholarships to athletes) have had to do fundraising activities to raise money for officials and jerseys, while the men's team in the same sport is covered by their budget.
So, there is still a lot of work to be done to really even things up.
nescio, it was once said that revolution is a tree that needs blood for watering. You should be thankful that the feminists never really resorted to a bloody revolution. If anything, the feminist revolution was one of the most peaceful ones that occurred.
And I wouldn't knock down feminists so hard. You have sisters who have had the opportunities they have at education and careers BECAUSE of these movements.
Nescio, you cannot be serious..you are equating firebrand rallies of mullahs who want to inflict social damage through supposed divine mandates to universal rights like fight to break the glass ceiling in pay, opportunities in education etc???
What's next, you are going to compare homecoming rallies in highschool to Hamas marches in Gaza?
What is a mediocre feminist Nes? Is it like a moderate muslim?
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And I wouldn't knock down feminists so hard. You have sisters who have had the opportunities they have at education and careers BECAUSE of these movements.
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there is a difference between emancipation and feminism. The former being an evolutionary process that started way back towards the end of the 19th century (at least in Holland; many examples of this gradual change can be given from that period); the latter (starting somewhere in the 1960s/70s) however being the -politically- extremistic version of the former (note the comparison i made above). And I think it's justified to say that a large part of female success (as the example of my sisters shows) is due to the emancipation movement, and less due to the politically coloured extremist version of it, namely feminism.
And as I mentioned above, most voices you hear nowadays are more or less the 'mullah'-equivalent of feminism
disclaimer: I’m not defending either of the two. Just making a striking comparison that holds well to a certain extent
note the difference as i put above between emancipation and feminism. The latter being that subgroup who after having obtained quite some success with emancipation are actually trying to swing the pendulum the other way
they are actually very well comparable, although on a different scale, but that doesn’t change the intra-relationship in the two situations.
It’s the equivalent of the mediocre mullah, who without thorough knowlegde just repeats and repeats and repeats what generations of mediocre mullah before him have said
Isn't it wonderful as you look back at the accomplishments of the last 2 generations and feel this sense of pride and exhiliration, you feel more hopeful and ecstatic about the possibilities to come, attributing all the successes and accomplishment to the can-do/take-massive-action spirit of the genuine feminists; even though in the periphery of your thoughts, vision, there are always those "trendy feminists" who misrepresent and misinterpret the work you and yours did. OH well, they'll disappear in time, don't you worry.
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LI,
Not sure what it is that has you upset. I wasn't trying to be holier-than-thou or sanctimonious, it may have sounded that way, but really I'm not. My issue is the dismissal of what feminists actually have done and do because of the nitpickers who rip into people for using mailman instead of mailperson, etc. Nothing else. Yes, I am proud of the work my mother did, she was a wonderful role model, but I wouldn't say me and mine are better than any other feminist out there. Every step counts.
And hopefully, yeah, they will eventually fade away.
Nes, if you think women have achieved quite a bit (which I find quite untrue, if you look at the status of women around the world, just look at GDP contribution of the fairer sex in muslim countries). The pendulum, my friend, is inert.
I am beginning to lose my patience with you. Just kidding..you know I love you
I fully agree, in many countries around the world (i was particularly talking about the west) the pendulum is inert, perhaps even moved a bit in the wrong direction. BUT i think the way to get this pendulum moving is emancipation: the way of gradual development. I don’t think in countries where women are oppressed, the rigid means feminism propagates will have much effect; they might even be counter-productive. I think this is the (only?) point we disagree on in this discussion
The more displeasure I have of encountering women anywhere, the more I think they have a chip on their shoulder, are too sensitive for their own good, and see illusory discrimination in an illusory world colored by their secret desire to be handmaids to their men.
And Minah, yes, we have feminists to thank for their racism and their policies about sexual sterilization and eugenics. Of course, we don't want to think of that. Of course, we are never taught them. Of course, most of us don't even know that. Of course, we don't know how many Japanese women they helped to intern. How many women they forcibly sterilized.
Get off your god pedestal, don't be so sensitive. My gripe was about women only contributing to ONE topic in religious philosophy, only having one thing to say. Feminism is not needed anymore. It's day is over. Claim tickets to fame and success and controversy on intelligence in OTHER areas now. Stop harping that same dead ditty.
Feminism is most certainly needed in many places across the world ... maybe not as much in North America or Europe but definitely places like South East Asia.
What feminism was back in the day and what it has become now are two different things. What exactly is the definition of feminism in 2005? Can anybody define it? Will the definition vary from person to person? For me, feminism is about empowering women who need empowerment, i.e. victims of physical abuse (and yes, they are victims). Feminism is not about arguing whether God should be referred to as a woman or such arguments and this really shouldn't be labelled as feminism at all. It's an insult to confuse such things are feminism. It's an insult to everything feminists have accomplished over the past 100 years.
Majority of the times people point fingers at wrong reasons…Oh I am such and such (woman, muslim, black…etc) that’s why I got mistreated. Excuse me, but you got mistreated for your own actions 
Just kidding..you know I love you 