Swat was totally in government control. It is very much part of Pakistan proper. Unlike FATA areas which from day one had very poor control from the central government.
Well it was under govt control, until that control was lost. Thats why the Army had to go in, as the Taliban had effectively taken it over. Unlike in Swat however, Southern Punjab is not in the hands of the Taliban in the same way that Swat was. It may become that way, IF there not careful, but as of right now, there in no indication of something similar happening there.
So for now, S Punjab would be a police matter, and doesnt require an Army assault...
I fear this is not true. The fundamental base of modern economy is not agriculture but other things like energy resources, water flow, location, tourism potential, etc. What would you say to One Unit plan? Before that natural gas or hydrocarbon resources, etc. were controlled by provinces...but due to that scheme their headquarters and levers of control are located in Lahore.
I agree. Modern economies is not based on Agriculture, but Pakistan still relies heavily on Agriculture as its prime source of GDP.
Like I said, at the formation of Pakistan, the advantage of Punjab was due to its inherant strength in Agriculture initialy.
Also, Punjab was favored, as much of the Army recruits were from here. Infact, I would say that the parts of Punjab that were high on the list of recruitment by the British were also the more prosperous.
S I think it was due to the initial strength of the Punjab economy that ultimately lead to the consolidation of economic control over the other province.
I should also add that the fact that the power brokers, who were the original supporters of Pakistan, and were part of the Muslim league also hapened to be wealthy land owners from agriculturaly rich areas, such as Punjab etc.
Not to mention the fact that much of the Army always happened to be Punjabi.
So the dominance of Punjab was apparent well before the creation of Pakistan.
The circumstances under which Pakistan was created among other things ultimately produced the equation we see today.
I agree. Modern economies is not based on Agriculture, but Pakistan still relies heavily on Agriculture as its prime source of GDP.
Like I said, at the formation of Pakistan, the advantage of Punjab was due to its inherant strength in Agriculture initialy.
Also, Punjab was favored, as much of the Army recruits were from here. Infact, I would say that the parts of Punjab that were high on the list of recruitment by the British were also the more prosperous.
S I think it was due to the initial strength of the Punjab economy that ultimately lead to the consolidation of economic control over the other province.
I should also add that the fact that the power brokers, who were the original supporters of Pakistan, and were part of the Muslim league also hapened to be wealthy land owners from agriculturaly rich areas, such as Punjab etc.
Not to mention the fact that much of the Army always happened to be Punjabi.
So the dominance of Punjab was apparent well before the creation of Pakistan.
The circumstances under which Pakistan was created among other things ultimately produced the equation we see today.
With some of the points I agree e.g. the canal irrigation system that British Raj laid in Punjab and Sindh togethor with farm to road network brought prosperity to Punjab (they did the same thing in Pesahawar Valley as well). Furthermore, Pakistan Army was Punjabi heavy since 1947 and there was stiff Punjabi resistance to recuitment from other ethnicities especially in officers rank (Prof Stephen P. Cohen).
What benifited Punjab were the dictatorships especially the Zia's one which overpowered Punjab's military and civil bureaucracy and its commercial-industrial class byond all limits of fairness.
Till 1971, Urdu speakers were dominent in finacial institutions and industries while Punjabis were powerful in miltary...The nationalization program of Bhutto through the persuation/scheming of Dr Mubashir Hassan (of Lahore) changed that configuration and laid the foundation of future Punjab's emegence in those domains as well (during Zia era).
Those of you who think any operation against Taliban is a police matter are clueless. Pakistani police cant fight armed robbers let alone trained terrorists.
Recall laal masjid. I think that is proof that army needs to used everywhere and not just in NWFP to tackle these scum bags. There is no doubt that most of the Pakistani taliban foot soldiers are being recruited from rural punjab madrassahs. Kasab Ajmal is a punjab resident. Free your minds and try not to see regional bias everywhere.
I don't advocate a military mission on South Punjab just yet, but covert operatives need to expand their work into that region, because there is support in nearly every rural area of Pakistan by this time for extremism.
I mean, why are there mosques who are openly collecting donations and volunteers for Jihaad? How has the government not cracked down on this?
^^ punjabi militants are mostly fighting India while the FATA were in Afghanistan but when Pakistan turned on them after 9/11, they turned their guns on Pakistan.
the only time Pakistan will crack down on them, when there is too much external pressure caused by these guys when they attack india which will force pakistan to crack down on them...but since India is not USA and 26/11 is not 9/11...its not gonna happen anytime soon
The problem with what he is saying is that there is no region in Punjab where the militants have taken over areas which they have done in NWFP and FATA. You cannot have an army operation when the militants have not even openly declared themselves.
IF there is this large compound in Bahawalpur then of course there needs to be some military action against this. If there are weapons being transferred from Punjab to NWFP then it should be the border police who are making sure they are not smuggled.
It will be impossible to stop people being converted into terrorists but then not at all impossible to deal with their networks.
As for the provincialist element to the thread its not fair to blame NWFP alone but then again our American masters see this as the main threat.
But one can only blame the person whose views were eing expressed in the article for aking it into a provincalist war. He does come from a political party which "provincialises" and "ethnicises" issues.
There is this strong vocal element of this "Punjabi Taliban" thing constantly going through the media. I do get the feeling people want to pass the blame and score political, provincial points but these so-called Punjabi groups have done to challenge law and order where they have operated or allegedly had camps - ie Southern Punjab, Kashmir, Hazara. NO villages have been taken over, no women wipped publicly. It does not mea that there are none but the media should nt try sensationalising stories.
I remember reading a article in a newspaper in Pakistan 3 months ago which stated that the whole Punjab Taliban issue started to blow the Seraiki province debate out. It reminds me of the whole taliban in Karachi issue - up until now nothing has really come about.
For those who thought the end of the Taliban occured after Swat, you were optimistic. This will take longer. Suicide blasts will occur for years to come. The Taliban got a good drubbing in Swat, lets hope they get some more, wherever they are based.
Those of you who think any operation against Taliban is a police matter are clueless. Pakistani police cant fight armed robbers let alone trained terrorists.
Recall laal masjid. I think that is proof that army needs to used everywhere and not just in NWFP to tackle these scum bags. There is no doubt that most of the Pakistani taliban foot soldiers are being recruited from rural punjab madrassahs. Kasab Ajmal is a punjab resident. Free your minds and try not to see regional bias everywhere.
Soo you want to send in the Army to go after groups that hide among civilians and never come out in the open?
The S Punjab issue requires intelligence gathering, not helicopter gunships.
The police have been effective in capturing terrorsits when they are given the intelligence on them.
^^ punjabi militants are mostly fighting India while the FATA were in Afghanistan but when Pakistan turned on them after 9/11, they turned their guns on Pakistan.
the only time Pakistan will crack down on them, when there is too much external pressure caused by these guys when they attack india which will force pakistan to crack down on them...but since India is not USA and 26/11 is not 9/11...its not gonna happen anytime soon
India creates its own problems...
But if these terrorsts start attacking Pakistan intrests, then its a different story.
the only time Pakistan will crack down on them, when there is too much external pressure caused by these guys when they attack india which will force pakistan to crack down on them...but since India is not USA and 26/11 is not 9/11...its not gonna happen anytime soon
It will when Jihad, Inc. attacks China!
[QUOTE]
But if these terrorsts start attacking Pakistan intrests, then its a different story.
......tribal leaders have accused Pakistan's military and Inter-Service Intelligence agency .....
This is just pathetic and rather shameful f@rting.
Pakistan has sacrificed hundreds of its police, FC, and army jawans and officers.
Pakistan army has done miracle in terms of clearing up Swat, where life is slowly returning to normalcy.
But no.
These pathetic <edit.would love to turn Pakistan into a cesspool <edit.
yeap.
These shameless creatures want to convert Pakistan into Islamic state of
This is just pathetic and rather shameful f@rting.
Pakistan has sacrificed hundreds of its police, FC, and army jawans and officers.
Pakistan army has done miracle in terms of clearing up Swat, where life is slowly returning to normalcy.
But no.
These pathetic <edit.would love to turn Pakistan into a cesspool <edit.
yeap.
These shameless creatures want to convert Pakistan into Islamic state of
Shabash.
That was all planned, don't you know that??
Punjabi army is helping Afghan talibans to kill innocent people in Pakistan to capture their land and resources.
So you think your sources are genuine. Can you tell what are your sources in reference to what you write 100 pages, though you have improved a lot by comming down from 1000 pages with different nick too.:)
Eric Margolis and other lefties have an axe to grind with historical linkages between Pakistan and the American conservatives.
So when you read NYT, Wash compost, Eric Margolis, Fisk etc. be aware of their biases.
Just like we should be aware of the right-wing bias in Fox-news, Washington Times etc.
As they say, truth is somewhere in the middle.
Who is not biased? Do you think your posts are unbiased? Truth is either at the beginning or at the end, middle ground is always manipulated distorted version of the facts, mostly subjective tailored to someone's fantasy and schizophrenia. People have extra-ordinary skills that convert truth in to a blatant lie and lie in to a biggest truth of all time. The biggest truth is how you make believe people by stating a complete lie.
That was one of the most stupid action taken by Mush. Killing Bugti was another blunder he committed. BHC has already ordered FIR against Mush for killing of Bugti. I think FIR has also been filed for killing of women and children in Lal Masjid.