Not all Sahabahs were righteous

Society Religion & Philosophy
61

Shah...to you it might be lose and win thing...because you come here with intention that you will confuse others with your. But me i dont come here to lose or win,
i just come here to tell people that only right way and only try way of islam is QURAN AND NOTHING BUT QURAN AND SUNNAH of Mohammad(pbuh).
If you deny quran and sunnah you are clearly a Non-muslim and a disbeliever, if you dont deny quran and sunnah but make up your own and interupt it like the way it suites you, you are still a NON-muslim and disbeliever.

Islam stays like it was, you have, got, will never get, have never gotten, ANY KINDS OF AUTHORITY TO CHANGE ISLAM!!! GOT THAT YOU MAGGOTTT!!!!!!!!!

Logic bomb sir...ye sub hindu, maarzaii, aur brailvii kuuttey hian, innain apney baaray main kuch be paata nahi, they dont even know what their leaders were, what were they capable of, they come here to distort and divert and confuse and make islam more harder. These blood holiers!!!
WHen you ask them something from quran and hadith, OFF COURSE they dont have no answer to that, and than they do making up their own verses and hadiths.

Shame on your guys.

Jaawan

till next time**Keep_It_Simple_Stupid**

**Wise Man says:>What I say won't really change anything, but what you say doesn't really matter!

62

First of all i think all of us should keep a check on our manners here. We are not the judge of who is right and who is wrong. Only Allah knows that. All of us should try to follow Islam in whichever way we think best after discussing it with people if necessary. Words like maggot and kuttey and all just cause a rise in temper and don't help in getting the point across. Layout your points or questions, let the other answer... ok.... nothing to fight about.

63

ok.... question for shia brothers: what exactly is that you think is wrong about Hazrat Abu Bakr and Bibi Aisha?

64

ppl i guess u shouldn't take a11shah's comments so seriously, because he has a habit of confusing others and calling them watever he wants or decides to call so that the other person would retaliate and this thread of his would become longer and longer.
Wat i believe is that nobody can call someone a non-muslim or a muslim because only Allah knows who is true or who is not true. we can guide ppl but we can't redicule them, b'cuz our religion doesn't teach us to ridicule non-muslims, does it? this is a message to all u muslims out there.

65

Brothers;

Let's stop with all this bigotry remarks and focus back on what is important.

Jawaan, u have this habit of calling ppl names - hindus, kafirs, blah, blah - but the bottom line is that you have not proven once, nor answered any questions that were directed towards you or your misguided brothers.

I am talking here about a specific ayat where the Almighty has commanded you all to follow the one who gives charity while in prayer.

Have any of you even attempted to find out who this person is.

Jawaan, your screams to follow the Qur'an and the sunnah mean zilch unless you try to debate / research on what the holy book is telling you.

As far as sunnah as derived from the sahih sittahs, I have proven, beyond any doubt of many false hadiths that are present in these books.

This thread contains myriads of knowledge in this matter - and about what sorts of people Abu Baker and Aisha were. Read it. These are valuable knowledge that YOU should all be aware off, even if you disagree.

Jawaan, now stop with all this hindu nonsense and lets discuss specific ayats and hadiths. You should not have any objection on this point.

Lets start the discussion about this ayat first.

Wa Salam

66

a11shah , if jawan hasn't prove anything neither you have , if you say the verse is straightforwardly pointing someone , give the verse again and prove that its really pointing to that person.

67

All muslims agree - that man was Hazrat Ali(as)!

68

faceup did you researched on that or you are concluding by just sitting at your home , Kiya ghar baithai haank rahai ho ???
Waise Quran says 'Ghaur Karo' Sirf Itna HI Ghaur KAr Sakai Tum ????

69

Faceup by the way why did you get into this I am talking to someone else and the thing is if you know the verse a11shah is referring to repost in the same thread and prove for your comment , don't say anything which you can't prove .
a11shah whether or not you prove anything or not , now I can prove to all that you are a person who would say everything just because emotions(not logical).Just say yes or no , I will prove it .
You are illogical then my mashwara for you is to stay quite and don't make mess of everything.

70

Gola Ginda, you seem to be the son of a pious woman. Why then are you intent on bringing her shame.

Please do not accuse me of stating facts emotionally when it is you sunnis who are ignorant of this particular verse, and the Qur'an in general.

The Quranic verse is 5:55 and 5:56. I have reproduced the event + the quranic verse below:

Imam Abu Ishaq Ahmed ibn
Ibrahim al-Nisaburi al-Tha`labi, a great sunni scholar has stated the following in his
Al-Tafsir al-Kabir. When the writer comes to this
verse, he quotes Abu Tharr al-Ghifari saying:

"I have heard the Messenger of Allah, peace be
upon him and his progeny, with these ears - may I
be deaf if I tell a lie - and saw him with these eyes -
may I be blinded if I lie - saying: Ali is the leader of
the pious, the annihilator of infidels; whoever
supports him is supported by Allah, and whoever
abandons him is abandoned by Allah.' I have,
indeed, said my prayers once in the company of the
Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him and his
progeny, when a beggar came to the mosque and
nobody gave him anything.Ali was in the state of
ceremonial prostration when he beckoned to him to
take his ring. The beggar came and took it from
Ali's finger, whereupon the Messenger of Allah,
peace be upon him and his progeny, invoked Allah,
the Almighty, the Omniscient, and prayed Him on
behalf ofAli saying: Lord! My Brother Moses
had prayed to you saying: Lord! Remove the
distress from my bosom, render my mission easy
for me, and untie my tongue's knot so that people
may understand me, and let me have a vizier from
my own kin, my brother Aaron, to support my
endeavour and participate in my undertaking, so
that we may both praise you a great deal and
mention your Name a great deal; You have been
most Kind unto us (Qur'an, 20:25-35);-thereupon,
You inspired to him: Verily, your prayer has been
granted, O Moses! (Qur'an, 20:36). Lord! I am
Your servant and Prophet; therefore, remove my
distress, render my mission easy for me, and grant
me a vizier from my kin,Ali, to support my
endeavour'. By Allah, the Messenger of Allah,
peace be upon him and his progeny, had hardly
finished his supplication before Gabriel, the trusted
one, brought him this verse: `Only Allah is your
wali and His Messenger and those who believe,
those who say their prayers and offer zakat (even)
while prostrating (in prayers). And whoever takes
for wali Allah, His Messenger, and the believers,
they, indeed, are the party of Allah; they are the
ones who shall achieve victory (Qur'an, 5:55-56).'"

So please stop with your ignorance and follow the footsteps of the holy prophet (pbuh) and his CHOSEN holy imam - Imam Ali (as)

71

a11shah , the verses you mentioned are ,

5:55 : Your (real) friends are(no less than) Allah, His Massenger, and the Believers,-those who establish regular prayers and pay Zakat and they bow down humbly (in worship).

5:56 : As to those who turn (for friendship) to Allah, His Massenger, and the Believers,-it is the party of Allah that must certainly triumph.

Here is just given the property of the people who are real friends of Islam .

Not enough evidence to prove that , these verses are realy referring to some specific personality and neither can the long report you have given be considered since the trial of the person who conveyed is possible , only thing left is Quran , why don't you post verse and comment on that , man logic proves itself , don't give what other say about it try to prove yourself , don't try to made somebody emotional by saying he was sunni , or he was wahabi .
The conclusion is , you are unable to convince the verses are really referring to someone.Actually they are referring to common property that more than a person may have.

72

[quote]
Originally posted by a11shah:
Did the prophet tell you to follow Hanafi and maliki or did he tell you:

"I leave behind two weighty things, the Qur'an and my Ahl Bait. Hold on to both of them tightly and they will lead you to the fountains of Kauser"

**
[/quote]

Nope, the actual hadith (closest meaning based on classical arabic used at that time)
"I leave behind two weighty things, the Qur'an and my sunnah."

"Sunnah", effectively means the way the Prophet (SAW) lived his life and his teachings. This includes all authentic ahadith, especially those reported in Sahah-e-Sata'a.

W'salam

73

I just had an opportunity to read the whole post and replies to this topic. Originally I felt this was an interesting topic, but on reading through the whole lot, it seems, it has degraded to lots of name-calling and dabs by both factions. This is quite unfortunate, for a topic of such seriousness as this.

The one who started this post is obviously a muslim, who follows the Fiqa'h e Jafaraia. Frankly, I and many of those who responded to this post are muslims, who follow the fiqa'e Hanafi. It is my firm believe that ALL Fiqah are true and correct. All the four imams interpreted our deen, and all of them are intellectually much ahead than we can ever hope for. This includes Imam Jafar, who was heavily praised in his times as well, even by muslims who didn't necessarily agreed with him on all his interpretations.

I have had lots of friends who are, what is commonly known as "Shia'a". I have no objection to the way they follow Islam. My only consteration comes in when I see muslims, in some cases misguided by teachings fed into them since early childhood, to defame sahaba, especially those sahaba who stood by the Prophet (SAW) all through his life and there are authentic ahadith reported in Saha-e-Sataa which collaborate their stature.

We, are too ignorant to even compare ourselves with the khaak (soil) of those great men. Without doubt these include Hazrat Abu-Bakr, Umer, Usman and Ali (Razi Allah Tallah). Their knowledge, their wisdom, their piety, and above all their companionship to our Prophet makes them far superior to be even considered in such a degrading manner in these forums.

The ayat and ahadith relating to Munafiq'a relate to munafiq's in Medina during the times of Prophet (SAW) who are clearly mentioned in Islamic books. Please do not show your ignorance, or your misguided animosity towards the sahaba.

Believe me, you are not earning any sawab by writing these defamatory messages again and again in these posts. You will not earn any 'converts', either. Each of us has enough sins already, that even if we start tauba from now till the day we die, that may not be enough. Surely, we should not add to our own burden. Who is right and who is wrong, will all be revealed on the day of the judgement. We must pray to Allah Ta'llah to reward our good deeds, excuse our gunah, and keep us on the right track.

Ameen.

To the originator of this post, I am not giving any arguments for or against this topic, but your submissions, are just very painful, due to their rudeness towards some people who are acknoledged to be very high in piety by a definitve majority of all muslims. It is only proper, that I request you to be careful in what you say. Hold on to your beliefs if you feel they are true, but to utter words like you did against the closest companions will not earn you any friends here or in the heareafter. May Allah guide us all (Insha Allah)

74

Mashallah, your views are very well welcomed

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif

75

Pristine,

How can the '2 weighty things' mean: Quran & Sunnah when the Prophet(saw) commanded against writing anything about him?
There is a sahih, amongst the thousand of sahihs, that commands against the writing of 'his ways'.

76

a11shah ... I just read this thread.
Actually ur very first post was very well written, and make me ponder. However, what happens afterward is not appreciable. Before starting debate we definately need to observe few basic rules.
I will not defend the either the shia or sunni point of view (though i appreciate ur well written first post). I would like u (and others) to please observe few basic points:

  • Donot insult or hurt other persons believes. One can criticize them but not the way it was done. Remember Prophet's (may peace be upon him) saying that (approximately) means donot insult others "gods", lest they do it for urs. I understand ur point of view regarding sahabas, and I assume that u also know that they are respected among sunnis. Also u know the respect sunnis have for hadith books, like bukhari etc. So u should put ur point of view and should not directly (personally) attack them ... what to say in bad words !? I will quote the sentences from ur posts, that i feel are inappropriate. They vary in their degree of being objectionable. however, i will arrange them as they appeared in the discussions. I hope that u will realize and inshaAllah improve ur criticism.

Also at the end I will try to collect few objectionable sentences by "faceup". Again the point is: be decent in discussion ... u can have ur point of view but this doesnot means that u start ridiculating what other believes and respects. I will advise the same to all shia, sunnis and other groups.

Objectionable sentences From a11shah

"After all, a donkey is a donkey, no matter how well you train it to speak in french"

"Proving the holiness of the sham sahabahs from your own Sahihs .... "

"NOT ALL SAHABAHS WERE TRUTHFUL. Examples are that of Khalid bin Waleed, Muwayah, etc"
[Please compare it with ur this sentence in a later post:
"I am not pointing at any particular sham sahabahs that you have in mind BUT - "]

"You are one of those that has learnt the ways of your corrupted forefathers.
Would you like me to drill the Quranic ayats into your empty head ?"

"I do not need to pin point specific ayats towards certain of your sham campanions. am sure that you sunnis will find ways of covering up their faults."

"You run by lying - as you have done since the throne of Abu Baker, Muavyah, and the Abbasid kings."

"Where in the world did you get the idea that Imam Ali (as) agreed to the sham elections of your corrupted sahabahs ? "

"It is a fact that Imam Ali (as) and his close companions like Ammar bin Yasser, Miqdad, Salman Farsi, and Abuzar Ghafari opposed the so called khilafat of your munafiq sahabahs."

"Your ahl-sunnat beliefs are based on verdicts and laws set forth by your sham companions especially by the Master of Innovators, Umar bin Khattab"
[Now donot u feel that its too direct?? ... And is shamful act to hurt others beliefs ... u can discuss it intellectually and can prove others that they are wrong, but what we all will gain by calling names??]

"How on earth can you say that the actions of these corrupted companions were worldy in nature."

"Abu Baker stealing the caliphate ..."
[Again too direct and harsh choice of words ...]

"Abu Baker and his henchmen ..."

" ... Then you start using it as a source to praise your munafic sahabahs"

"Muawyah sure did a good job of training you all into following his corrupted beliefs."

[Also please once again compare the above 4-5 quotes with ur this sentence:
"I am not pointing at any particular sham sahabahs that you have in mind BUT - "]

"Eh Molvi ka bacha; "

...............

I like the following sentences though:
"Because I will tell you brothers and sisters, whether you like it or not, there are differences.
I support unity between shias and sunnis but that does not mean that we should hide the differences and not search for the truth." ...

That's true but please be polite and observe the aadaab of discussion.

Objectionable sentences From faceup

"The Followers of Sunnah with their sahihs of bukhari, muslims and its tabloid ..."

"What kind of muslims follows books of bukhari & co. ..."

"Jaheel and Jahaliyat belongs to those that follow the writings of bukhati & co ..."

faceup please try to change the mode of presenting ur point of view ... again my suggestion (without any offence): try to follow the aadaab of discussion. At least a11shah presented his point of view well in the very first post and to some extend in "21 Questions to Ponder Over" post (though he lost most of his well-put arguments in going for direct attacks in the rest of the posts).

May Allah help us all.

77

Sincere,

There is everything OBJECTIONABLE in the contents of your bukhari & co's sahihs, which documents, among other things, the prophet's sex life and associated scandalous matters. The anti-Islamic websites are having a field day with it!

Let's get clear, the prophet clearly commanded that his "ways" be not written down. The muslims, not only wrote it down but they made it into the meanings of the Quran, into the shariah laws and forever! Here's what the prophet said:

"Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it."

" the messenger of God ordered us NEVER to write anything of his hadith."

The four guided Khalifas who ruled the Muslim Umma (nation) after the death of the Prophet Muhammed, respected the order of the Prophet and prohibited the writing and collection of Hadiths.

This prohibition of hadiths was continued until Omar Ibn Abdel-Aziz (not the Caliph Umer] permitted the writing of Hadiths and Sunna, then many books and (Kararees) appeared containing Hadiths.

As far as authenticity of hadith goes - initially, over 90% of hadiths were fabrications; this was later cleaned up by using certain criteria to screen out the fabrications, if possible.

So, do you have any 'sincere' response to the above.

78

[This message has been edited by Gola Gunda (edited September 08, 2000).]

79

Faceup , about the hadiths , I agree with you they are collected after a long time after the physical appearence and disappearence of Prophet Muhammad(SA), and since the HAdiths are not the verses of Quran for the same incidence different people explain it in different ways , just like and Urdu proverb , "Jitnai Muun , itni baatain" , offencing nobody with that proverb, but it is a kind of truth that everybody uses his own words and later on they are interpretted giving the same hadiths but conveyed by different people and producing as differents.

80

My dear Gola,

May I ask if you have read the scandalous hadiths about our prophet that anti-Islamic websites make fun of? Should they[scandalous hadiths] have been there in the first place?

Gola,
Hadiths/Sunnahs are at the heart of muslim beliefs. The meanings of quran, the shariat are all based on sunnah/hadiths.