Re: No F16's for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
lets assume, Pakistani pilots fly less hours, and indian more!!
does that makes happy Mr Talwar?
but who were more effective giving the size of both IAF and PAF?
Re: No F16's for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
It doesn't make me happy or anything but I just wanted to burst the bubble of the dude who said Indian pilots cannot fight WVR or something like that.
Ideas like this and "Hindu weakness" type dreams have what caused Pakistan to undertake foolish adventures and fail at the cost of hundreds of lives on both sides.
24 or even 72 F-16s are not going to make Pakistan any more capable of waging war than today because India too would have equivalent or better weapons in larger numbers by that time.
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
It is a fact. 65/71 proved it.
Pakistan does not have any intentions to wage war against anyone. Pakistan is just looking for defence. All the recent military buildups have been due to India trying to wage war against Pakistan.
And if you meant i said hindus are weak and stuff, then it is in your head. Cause i didnt mention that at all. The problem is not that. The problem is that all things India does are right and all things Pakistan does are wrong.
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
Oh please. IAF more than wiped PAF in 1971 and in Kargil, PAF was so afraid that it refused to fight.
IAF flew more sorties and more offensive sorties in particular, so it lost more aircrafts. The idea is to win the war, not preserve assets by hiding them.
Below is an analysis of 1971 and 1965 by PAF Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail, who is also a well known Military Aviation expert of late.
http://www.pafcombat.com/analysis-of-losses.htm
So, once again, if you want to live in a dreamland, please do so. But I also suggest you read reports of recent DACT excercises between IAF and USAF and IAF and French Air Force to see what those guys think of IAF.
Then again, you have the option of living in 1965.
Re: No F16's for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
Talwar, Aalsi and all anti Pak (Indian) members
what point do you wish to prove through such arguments in every thread? clearly thsi debate has been triggered by the F16 clearance news, so if its not going to effect india why do you keep going round in circles trying to prove through some way or another that Pakistan and Pakistanis are incompetent...? havent you heard our foreign dept has clearly said we hold no aggressive intentions against anyone...(at the moment), so dont get all jumpy.
btw talwar, the above source is extremely credible and accurate. how does it prove your points though?
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
HZ,
I’ve ALWAYS said that Pak will get F-16s. That was not my point.
My posts were response to http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showpost.php?p=3167127&postcount=26
I’ve never said that PAF is incompetent but that IAF is just as competent as PAF in every aspect of warfare. The above link by Tufail says clearly that in 1971, the airwar was straight down the middle and given that IAF flew more sorties (over twice) than PAF, its goals were achieved. Simple.
If someone says India is incompetent, expect a response with facts. If you as a moderator want to avoid this type of argument, please make it clear that flaming is bad on both sides.
Re: No F16's for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
yes, such arguments that lead to mudslinging are to be avoided at all costs. by both sides. i'm sure theres nothing new i've said.
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
Haris, don’t be a typical Pakistani and think that anyone that disagrees with you or the so called ‘Pakistani view point’ is an Indian, Hindu, Kafir whatever.
Pakistani guppies need to grow up and learn to counter act and debate the beliefs and view points of others, rather than delete, close threads, or ask for banning.
Allah mian aap ko naik hidayat dai. Ameen Suma Ameen.
BTW - as someone pointed out **no **BVR in Pakistani F16’s 
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
I think Pakistan ambitions has never been to wage war or attack, It merely mentain armed forces and arms to defend it self.
there is no match between Pakistan and India forces in terms of numbers and arms aquired by both.
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
musharuff says another kargil possible
India and Pakistan should adopt a “positive” attitude towards the Kargil war and resolve the Kashmir issue to prevent repetition of incidents like Kargil, Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf has said.
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
As i pointed out and you ignored it, Pakistan is making its own BVR’s that will be compatible with the Grifo radar. Getting BVR’s is not as big of an issue any more as you believe, and they are not as dependible as most of indians believe they are. ANd also, most probably the Pakistani F-16s will have BVR with them. If they dont, no big deal either.
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
Aalsi sir,
I am a ‘typical’ Pakistani who does mind dirt piles thrown his nation’s way by anyone at all; anti pakistan pakistanis or non Pakistanis alike. the same goes for the entire forum. this place IS Pakistani, and you have to make sure that in order for you to stay here as a member, you play by the rules set by GS! its that simple.
As far as the allegation that “anyone that disagrees with you or the so called ‘Pakistani view point’ is an Indian, Hindu, Kafir whatever.” goes, I had clearly addressed "Talwar, Aalsi and all anti Pak (Indian) members, no where does that define what you hold against me. though it is a fact that most anti pak sentiment IS initiated by non other than the eastern neighbors; Indians by default.
Majority of Pakistanis being proPakistan, we here at GS wouldnt want much anti Pakistani sentiment here, thats obvious. the amount of toleration shown on GS is already unique. so that should be respected. you should know better what happens to trouble makers on other forums. Hence stand your other absurd outburst answered.
All trouble makers to take notice of this post please.
thanks and hopeful for your ‘pleasant’ company.
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
Interesting article:
F-16s, centre-stage again
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/mar2005-daily/30-03-2005/oped/o1.htm
If by some miracle we actually get Congressional approval for the F-16s sale, the true military worth of these planes will depend on two main factors. First, what they actually have in terms of avionics and weapons systems. Two, what India acquires from the US, apart from F-16s and F-18s. The first will apparently be negotiated in discussions between Pakistan and the USA, so we can only hope we get updated planes and not just outmoded avionics of the eighties that are now part of children’s computer games.
The second issue is particularly important. The F-18s, which are specifically for aircraft carriers, will be a major force multiplier for India against Pakistan because as they will allow India access to targets in the interior of Pakistan through the sea route.
More critical is the sale of the Patriot missile system to India. This is a long-range, all-altitude, all-weather air defence system that effectively counters not only missiles but also advanced aircraft.
The Bush Administration has, in principle, agreed to sell the PAC-2 system as part of the Next Step in Strategic Partnership (NSSP – the same acronym as the National Security Strategy Paper of the US!) agreement between the US and India. The PAC-2 system has been upgraded by the manufacturer, Raytheon, with the development of the Patriot Guidance Enhanced Missile (GEM-T). Even before we acquire the new F-16s, the Indians are being provided with weapon systems that nullify the military advantage for us of these planes.
So why would the Indians make such a fuss? Because they have a compulsion to ensure that Pakistan remains vulnerable militarily in the conventional field. More important, they are hoping to detract Pakistan from objecting to the lethal systems the US is providing to India – systems that directly destabilise the nuclear deterrence in South Asia and lower the nuclear threshold. And, true to form, we have barely whimpered any protest on the US decisions to sell the new weapon systems to India.
An additional problem linked to the F-16 purchase will remain the matter of supply of spares. This issue held us hostage in the 1965 war with India and it has been a constant headache for our military since the various embargoes imposed by the US. So what will be the US position on the supply of spares this time? Will there be any guarantees on this point?
Finally, if the US Administration pursues our case in Congress with commitment, what would be the political asking price from Pakistan? What will be the political and military price, in addition to the monetary price, that Pakistan will pay for the F-16s?
Will we again pay it before all the planes are delivered? So before we see the Bush Administration’s decision on the F-16s as a “success of our foreign policy”, let us see how the issue evolves over time. We have been burnt before.
Re: No F16's for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
Aalsi the decision by bush to sell F-16 was made before the elections. Most people that have links in Pak military knew that if Bush wins, we will get the F-16, and if not, then we will have to go for another alternative.
As someone had posted here already, Patriot is not that great of a system.
And i dont think India will go for F-18's as its going for Mig-29s already. Who knows. In my view buying F-16s/F-18 by India will be the biggest mistake ever by india. But then again, when did India act smartly in purchasing weapons. Its more about where the politicians can make more money. India already operates soo many different planes and adding another one will be a huge expenditure. Its more cheaper for india to go for a Russian system or Mirage that they already operate. FOr Pakistan the adding of new F-16 will not take too long. we already have the infrastructure to support them. Actually that was one of the reasons why Pakistan did not start manyfacturing K-8, so that F-16s can be inducted easily and after that K-8 can be manufactured.
Re: No F16's for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
^^ India already in talks with Qatar to buy some used Mirage 2000.
Re: No F16's for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
India will buy American planes only if it is forced on us because of a package deal for getting US nuclear reactors and space technology which we really need.
Otherwise it is almost sure to be Mirage 2000-5 Mk2s with some customization similar to what was done for the UAE. The RDY-2 radar and perhaps SCALP standoff weapon and Mica BVRAAM.
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
I am surprised you said that. India has a strict policy that if they buy weapon they need ToT with it. Be it T-90, Su30Mki or even F-18 india always demanded technology transfer. unlike pakistan who has to look towards west for spares and more planes india makes them at home.
IMO it is a smart buying.
Re: No F16's for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
So, when are these F16's arriving then? Any news, dates etc...
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
When Pakistan ordered F-16s in 1981, it got its first 6 in 1983. The F-16 production block builds around ~16 F-16s a year right now (currently are going to Israel and UAE). Assuming they increase their production block, and PAF sends pilots for training in a few months, around 18-24 months from now.
Re: No F16's for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
hhahaha...I think this is the right time for me to tell u guys a joke about Pakistan and Indian AirForce......so here goes..
Indians were getting some planes from Russia, some of the indian pilots went Russia to get trained... "Ok, this is easy, even you fools would be able to operate this plane" said Russian trainer. "you press this to go up, you press that to go right, you press that to go left" said russian trainer.
"But how do we go down" asked Mr.Gupta.
"ohhhh......leave that to Pakistan airforce" said Russian trainer.