Re: No F16’s for Pakistan.
I am not sure about being happy, but Pakistani F16’s not having BVR capabilities does make me smile. 
Re: No F16's for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
ok sure, they dont. now go play with the mattel spacecraft kido!
Re: No F16's for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
^ Does it have BVR? :)
Re: No F16's for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
no they will not have bvr,however,that can be added in 3rd tier field work.
it will come with the latest most easily maintained engine.they will also come with the navy style landing gear making the entire suspension more durable and allowing the addition of a larger weapons array,(heavier payload).
ie jram,jdam,harpoon,sidewinder.the multiple target aquisition and prioritization computer is active and therefore this weapon as done will fight 6-14 targets at one time.yes,india will buy them too.As the new generation of raptor group 1st. line us only deployment fighters come on line, I do not think for one moment that the us owing a very high debt to pak will not allow them to aquire more of these aircraft as time goes on.
Re: No F16's for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
while I am thinking of the mention,yes,the us would surely like to see india
become more involved in various economic development issues worldwide.
If india wants to reap the benefits of being a big economic player,doesn't it seem logical that they help the 3rd world? India has,like many "boom" countries
enjoyed the benefits of globalization,without having to "pony up" the cake
the way the g-8 has to.And,whether they like it or not,the countries around them must benefit from this boom.And finally a thought on hope.I do not think for one moment that the us is going to allow india to wriggle too much in it's dealings with pak.That is not the path towards peace.And the relationship between the 2 countries would indicate to any geopolitician that pak must have the means to defend themselves in a manner consistent with discouraging any agression towards them.Thank you.Garcia.
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
In a country where pilots dont even know what a dog fight is and can crash a perfectly fine plane, I am glad you are relying on BVR. otherwise there was no competition.
Re: No F16's for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
Hey! I'm just south of you! Crummy weather eh?
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
Sure man, sure. Whatever makes you happy. Crashes happen only to airforces that fly planes regularly. 
BTW, remember to wake up when Pak forces land in Delhi. And then remember to wash up 
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
yeah i know. crash landing is one exercise Indians do pretty regularly. And as far as flying planes is concerned, Our pilots put in more hours only second to Israel airforce per year. I dont know how you guys fly the planes, when most of the fleet is grounded. EIther jaguars are grounded, or migs are grounded or SU’s are grounded.
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
And i have a lot of family/friends in Pakistan forces. I will definitely send a diaper for you with them when they get to Dehli. Might come in handy.
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
PAF pilots fly some of the lowest hours on average. Less than half of IAF pilots, according to your own offical PAF reports.
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
Read the above official PAF publication.
It says that PAF logs about 80,000 hours a year. PAF has about 500 combat aircraft and 2.5:1 pilot to plane ratio. That averages to 64 hours per pilot per year.
Israeli Air Force pilots log 250 hours a year.
Indian Air Force pilots log 180 hours a year, elite pilots log 250 hours a year.
PAF F-16 pilots logged few hours on the Vipe because in the 1990s most F-16s were grounded. Even in the 2002 crisis, 50% of PAF F1-6s were grounded.
Below is an interview of one of the top pilots on PAF F-16s Sq.Ldr. Sameen Mazhar. It was in 1998-99 period.
-16.net: How long have you flown the Viper and how many hours do you have on the F-16?
S/L. Mazhar: I have been flying the viper since 1990. But there was a break of 2 1/2 years in between when I did a tenure as a Flight Instructor in PAF Academy. Due to some restrictions, we do not fly as much as USAF or Turkish AF pilots do, therefore I only have about 500 hours on the F-16.
In 9 years with 2.5 years break = 6.5 years he flew 500 hours or 76 hours a year.
Next time, stick to using myths with those who don’t know the facts. I have friends in PAF too, more than one and I know the difference between bravado and reality.
Re: No F16's for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
BTW, PAF ACM Kaleem Sadat said that PAF has an attrition rate close to 2 per 10000 hours.
IAF's official rate is 0.88 per 10000 hours.
IAF crashes more because it flies more aircrafts for more time. If you want to live in a dreamland, feel free to do so.
Others like facts ;)
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
haha talwaar. I knew you would bring in the BR stuff in the discussion. Khair first of all, if you look at the fighter attritioin rate of IAF, its way way higher. Almost reaching 3. India has a huge fleet of transport planes that dont crash and so the attrition rate so low. Secondly the interview you posted, from what i read the only thing he is saying is that he was not flying F-16 as much when he was an intructor.
And lastlly pakistan did suffer problems with F-16 in the beginning, but spare parts were readily avaiable in the balck marker later on. F-16 were operational. You can even see that from the rest of the interview that you posted. How can PAF do all the responsibilities that F-16 squadorns have when the planes are grounded? haha right?
And here is an article from Pakdef for you.
http://www.pakdef.info/pids/paf/ayaz1.html
Actually i will post a few other articles in a little bit.
Re: No F16's for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
And this is a little older article, but gives detail of all planes and their attrition.
The only difference now is that the jaguar's attrition rate has gone up, and Mig 23 is the highest attrition rate right now in IAF.
*For the IAF, May [2000] is the cruellest month *
*By Srinjoy Chowdhury * May was one of the cruellest months for Indian Air Force pilots. Between 6 May and 23 May [2000], the IAF lost eight aircraft. On two occasions, it lost two planes on the same day.
The losses between 13 April and 12 June [2000] make for sad reading. During this period, the IAF lost four MiG-21s — the old workhorse. The planes crashed at Sirsa, Ambala, Nal and Jaisalmer on 13 April, 6 May, 13 May and 23 May. The IAF also lost two MiG-23, the ground attack aircraft, at Halwara on 25 April and 10 May. A MiG-27, which is similar to the MiG-23, went down at Kalaikunda on 12 June. Besides, the Air Force Academy lost an HPT-32 plane in May, a Kiran jet trainer crashed later that month at Bidar, and two Cheetah helicopters went down at Sarsawa on 17 May.
*The high number of MiG crashes is perhaps not very surprising. Between 1990 and 1997, the average accident rates of the MiG-21, MiG-23 and MiG-27 was the highest in the air force. Accident rates are based on the number of aircraft accidents in 10,000 flying hours and the MiG-27 accident rate was the highest at 2.86. The MiG-23 follows at 2.71 with the MiG-21 close behind at 2.37. *
Compared to these, the MiG-29, the Jaguar, the Mirage-2000 and the Sukhoi-30 (a recent addition) fare better. The MiG-29’s accident rate was 1.23 per 100,000 flying hours while the Jaguar’s was 1.67 and the Mirage-2000’s was 0.50. There has been no Sukhoi-30 crash so far. The IAF is tight-lipped about its accident rate, but officials said the early June rate was around 1.70-1.80 for the air force.
But why are there so many MiG crashes? An official says that comparatively younger and inexperienced pilots fly the MiG. “The best pilots are chosen for the top-of-the-line aircraft and comparatively less experienced pilots fly the MiG-21 which in any case is ready for a refit,” another official said. “Maybe, more care and better training is needed.”
The MiG-21 is several decades old and 120 of them are ready for refitting, but the project has been badly delayed.
The official’s statement tallies with the air chief, Air Marshal AY Tipnis’ remarks exactly a year ago. “MiG-21 accidents involving young pilots indicate inadequate involvement of flying supervisors and breach of orders and instructions,” the air chief said in a note to his senior commanders.
Altogether five MiG-21s were lost between June and August last year and the chief had warned that warplanes needed to be preserved for future conflict.
Courtesy: Statesman News Service (1 July 2000), New Delhi.
Re: No F16's for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
In 2003, your PAF chief said PAF crash rate is around 2 per 10,000 hrs.
In 2004, IAF chief said the current crash rate is 0.8 per 10000 hrs
There is no BR or Pak def here, just official rates tell the picture.
BTW, if spares were not a problem, why did your top F-16 pilot fly 500 hrs in nearly 9 years?
Anyway, if it makes you happy, think what you want.
I know facts have a funny way on you guys. ;)
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
yeah i am sure your happy days were shattered after reading the article. And as far as 500 hours thing is concerned, it can be any reason. As i said before, he was an intructer at that time, so thats why he might have not flown. Also there can be many reasons. And i have my own sources too that i trust much more than news paper clippings. Your answer to your cheif’s 0.8%, i already gave if you read my posts above Well i will say it again. India has a huge transport fleet and that is what keeps that Indian attrition rate that low. For fighters its way way more. You can look at the rates per planes from an Indian news paper and see how much it averages out to.
The facts remain that you want to believe what makes you happy and, i know i am the same way too. I am sure the things are not as good as i want to believe they are and they are not definitely as bad as you think they are either.
Re: No F16's for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
You are conveniently ignoring the two biggest items:
Mazhar says he was an instructor for 2.5 years out of 9. And he still flew 500 hours only. So you do the math and tell me why a top PAF F-16 pilot is flying less than 100 hours a year?
PAF's official book says that the air force totals 80,000 flying ours a year. Tell me why it is so low if PAF pilots fly comparable to Israelis' 250 hours a year?
Numbers don't lie. I expect you to address the above two points which I posted first.
Re: No F16’s for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
I didnt ignore this. i guess you were not paying too much attention. first of all if one pilot flies only 500 hours on the F-16 it does not mean the same for all the other pilots. Also if a pilot has 500 hours on F-16 it does not mean that he is flying only 500 hours in all of 9 years. Alot of pilots fly multiple planes. Specially pilots from CCS fly different planes. I thought it might be common sense to you.
I have read the book and have it, but i dont have it with me right now. And i didnt pay that much attention to these numbers when i was reading it. I will have to read that section again to answer what it means. If you have that portion, you can post it here and i will tell you what it means.
Now why dont you answer to the article i posted about the attritioin that you are soo proud of?
Re: No F16's for Pakistan-Pakistan left in the shadows (merged)
Those numbers are specific attrition rates for combat aircrafts alone - 5 years ago. They are not good, for sure but as I said, IAF has made a choice to maintain the flying hours at a high level despite maintenance and age issues.
The 0.88 number is the overall attrition rate for IAF as is the PAF number of close to 2. The number for fighters alone is called combat attrition rate.
For India - If you are a third world country and want to fly 180 hours per pilot per year on old planes, you will have crashes.
PAF on the other hand has chosen to keep a few pilots at elite level and large number who fly very low hours. It is a strategic choice.
But if you think that PAF pilots have some intrinsic advantage on WVR or other scenarios, you can live in your dreamworld.