New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

system · January 1, 2008, 5:09am

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

Thats what we are trying to change mera bhai...
Its your kind of thinking that caused the 1971 civil war that ended with the loss of East Pakistan...
So isnt it about time we changed things? Im sure if you were the one being accused of a crime in Pakistan, you wouldnt want a danda inside you, now would you?!?

I already responded to you long winded SJC post, but I dont think you bothered to read it...
So again, your argueing for the sake of argueing... Mush hasbt done ANYTHING that was according to the law or the constitution, other then send the CJ to the SJC... But even tha he did because the CJ had the courage to refuse to step down. The CJ and the Supreme Court did everythign accoring to the Constitution... Dont beileve me? Go read my post!

ajtr · January 1, 2008, 5:19am

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

would you appear on a talk show??

Fact, there was one television station, when President Musharraf ‘seized’ power in 1999. Under his leadership the Pakistani media blossomed to over 75 private channels. The notion that President Musharraf is a brutal dictator holds no weight, as in history there has never been a dictator who allows freedom of press, freedom to criticize, and freedom to express one’s views. It is like saying an obese man despises buffets, and chocolate bars.

Fact, that the poverty in Pakistan declined by at least 8% in the past 7 years. This disproves the notion that the rich are getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

Fact, that Pakistan’s stock exchange has been pronounced as the world’s best performing stock exchange twice in the past 7 years.

Fact, that despite Pakistan’s security problems, it’s economic growth rate has been an average of 6.5% during the past 7 years.

Fact, that the world bank, and IMF, have accredited the Musharraf administration for performing an economic miracle in Pakistan.

Fact, that Pakistan has been widely accepted in the world community as an important strategic partner (i.e induction in the Common Wealth, induction as a strategic partner of NATO).

Fact, that Pakistan is strategically placed in an indispensable position in the world. It would not be a false statement to claim, that the success or failure of Pakistan will determine whether the world will win or loose the war on terrorism. Hence, a successful and prosperous Pakistan is now in the interest of the world community.

Fact, that Pakistan’s relationship with the world community has never been better since its inception as nation in 1947.

Pakistan’s corruption ranking was 87/99 in 1999…when Mr.Musharraff assumed power. In 2002 it improved to 77/102. The rankings for the year of 2006, and 2007 were 138/179 . Which means corruption in Pakistan neither increased or decreased for the past 2 years.

When Benazir Bhutto was in power, Pakistan was the second most corrupt in the world.

Read this article, perhaps then you guys will understand your bias is making you think that way.

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=273632

Facts hold more weight than opinions and bisas.

Fact,That Ayub khan,yaha,zia,mush and all pak army generals in past 60 yrs made pakistan a prostitute in America’s and KSA’s Harem.

AND THIS IS THE GLARING TRUTH WHICH OVER WEIGHS ANY FACT ON THE FACE.

Sa1eem · January 1, 2008, 5:35am

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

PaKpatriot1:

Thats what we are trying to change mera bhai... Its your kind of thinking that caused the 1971 civil war that ended with the loss of East Pakistan... So isnt it about time we changed things? Im sure if you were the one being accused of a crime in Pakistan, you wouldnt want a danda inside you, now would you?!?

I already responded to you long winded SJC post, but I dont think you bothered to read it... So again, your argueing for the sake of argueing... Mush hasbt done ANYTHING that was according to the law or the constitution, other then send the CJ to the SJC... But even tha he did because the CJ had the courage to refuse to step down. The CJ and the Supreme Court did everythign accoring to the Constitution... Dont beileve me? Go read my post!

sorry .. I will read your post again and would answer that .. :)

Nevertheless, the thing is that ... if SC has stopped SJC to investigate than only other solution was that to kick Iftikhar without caring about investigation .. as that is what he wanted and that is what he got.

In past no one sent reference to SJC if they wanted to sack judge (or CJ) ... they just use to do that ... Musharraf tried to change the method and tried to follow proper route but .. I think that Musharraf was stupid to do that, he should have used same method what corrupts wants and are used to, that is a kick on their Assssss :)

The_Saracen · January 1, 2008, 6:41am

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

1 reason-

Nawaz sharif is the elected prime minister of pakistan marshal law nay us ko hataya, nawaz ko restore karo.

yazdi · January 1, 2008, 6:54am

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

Aalsi:

What are the new reasons for ousting President Musharaf? It can no longer be the restoration of democracy from PPP perspective, as in the last few days we have seen PPP democracy in action.

It can't be to improve the economy. Pakistan has seen unprecdented Economic growth during the past eight years.

It can't be law and order situation, as the law and order stituaton, apart from suicide bombing and odd display of emotions including what we have seen in the past few days, has been better than before 1999.

It can't because Pakistan keeps changing govt. every couple of years, as we have seen for the first time in history of Pakistan, an elected govt. completing its full term.

So, what are the reasons for ousting President Musharaf?

Aalsi I totally agree with you as nothing will ever change in Pakistan.....so why to change this dictator.... Pakistan is as unstable and undemocratic and unpredictable today as it was the day Bhutto returned to the country. And it is as unstable and undemocratic and unpredictable as it was before the notion of her return to the country was even conceivable.
And it is as unstable and undemocratic and unpredictable today as it would have been in a few weeks when Bhutto gained control of the country.

Because nothing in Pakistan ever changes.

Corrupt governments replace corrupt governments. Politicians, military generals, democratically elected leaders are killed, jailed, or chased out of the country only to be replaced by their clones.

When Pervez Musharraf seized control of the country from Nawaz Sharif, some Pakistanis were hopeful that he would be a force for good.

They were willing to look past the fact that he had deposed a democratically elected prime minister because they feared that Sharif was on the verge of becoming a dictator.

But others knowingly cautioned. "Just wait," they said. "Time will tell," they said.

Then Musharraf became the dictator and as Bhutto - a leader once removed from power and disgraced by corruption charges - looked set to take back control, those same words were uttered. "Just wait," they said again.

They'll never know if that cynicism was warranted the third time around.

And as they have in the past, the world will look to the Pakistani Army for certainty. And instead of rebuking a renewed declaration of martial law, they'll welcome it. As will many Pakistanis.

They'll play up the credentials of Pakistan's new army chief, General Ashfaq Kayani.

"A professional soldier," they'll call him. A graduate of the Command and General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth in Kansas, we'll be reminded. It will serve as a reassurance that the man who now controls the only constant force in Pakistan can also be seen as a friend.

And investors will say "that's good enough for us." Stocks in Pakistan will rise again, and foreign investors will return - even more prepared this time for the risks - and oil prices and gold prices will ease and credit spreads will narrow.

And those who call for elections, and democracy and rule of law in Pakistan will be looked at as trouble makers.

"What's important now is stability," they'll be told. And stability will return in three years or five years of renewed military rule.

And nothing will change..........

MAKRANI · January 1, 2008, 6:57am

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

[quote:/as to who replaces him, if we put in a genuine democracy, things will sort themselvs out. Bring back the Chief Justice and bring back the free courts. develop stong institutions etc...
Whatever happens, and who ever takes over, will still be a great improvement over this dictator and his tyranical rule. ]

Like I said literate Jahil......
When did you see things work out themselves during PPP or NS regimes. Unless work out means to you a bankrupt country. and yes to you Mr 10% will be an improvement. Subhan Allah.

king_faisal · January 1, 2008, 8:01am

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

actually china is a country still under dictatorship and yet its well on its way to being a super power. and advanced asian countries like korea and taiwan went very long periods under military rule and yet today can be classified as devoloped countries. and even in western countries like u.s. and uk, universal sufferage did not become a rule until much after elections started being held. other western countries like spain and greece had to go through large periods of military rule before transitioning to democracy.

the appointment of zardari as the head of ppp and the silence in the press over his track record clearly reaffirms that media is two faced in reporting facts. the behaviour of media is a good indication of the biggest policy mistake of musharraf. pakistani society is not ready for freedom and musharraf completely misundertood this. its because of musharraf that today politicians and media are openly undermining the safety and stability of pak which needs two-faced leaders in the mold of zia or bhutto in order to function properly.

Ali_R · January 1, 2008, 10:14am

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

Mr Dictator is definately not bankrupting this country. Especially when you have friends who take care of the bank balances of the Army, you very well know where money flows in and is spended at. You are one of them who has no clue.

paki_man · January 1, 2008, 2:09pm

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

People go and and on about him being a dcitator. But If I ask them, under whose governance they had more freedom, they either blindly lie, or don't say anything.

Why didn't civilian governments open 75 private channels?
Journalists in Pakistan, all concur that they've never had as much freedom before. Imran Khan calls Musharraff bad names, on live tv. If Musharraff was a dictator, than Imran Khan's body would not have been found.

People also claim that he has done nothing for the economy, that there is inflation, and poverty. To them I say, stop talking from your behind, and face the truth.

The poverty rate declined, the GDP increased at an average of atleast 6% during his rule. The stock exchange was twice named the world's best stock exchange.

People also claim, that he sacked a "proper" judiciary.

My friend, he got reports of corruption, so he sacked the chief justice, but allowed him to appeal his decision. The chief justice, unfortunatly allied himself with political groups and himself became a politician.
People forget, Musharraff accepted the Supreme Courts decision...he has the army under him, and he's the President. If he wanted to, he could have made the Chief Justice "accidentally" fall down the stairs. But NO, he RESPECTED, the supreme Courts decision.
Musharraff sacked the old judges due to incompetence. The entire world was waiting what the Supreme Courts verdict would be regarding Musharraff's eligibility for being President, and guess what, the Chief Justice, takes two weeks off for his daughters wedding, leaving the country in limbo. How selfish of the chief justice! How incompetent?

Musharraff is no dog of the U.S, if anything, he has to put up with failed politicians who go crying to the U.S to pressure on him to allow them to return. In return...they obviously will do favours for them.

Musharraff declared emergency, REGARDLESS of what the Americans wanted him to do.

You people are blind, perhaps you people want a Prime Minister, who'll steal $1.5 billion, or a politican who will name himself, "Supreme Islamic Ruler" and then send his Army Chief to India, in a time of war.

When I ask you?, give me facts and figures, that politicans were better than him...no one does!

All you anti - Musharraff people, have no official facts and figures, you only try to prove your point with ill-educated arguments filled with bias and hate.

You, anti - Musharraff have fit perfectly, into the hands of those who have a conspiracy against Pakistan...Bravo Bravo, may you sleep well at night, knowing you're one of the reasons why Pakistan will become the prostitute of the world! Bravo

paki_man · January 1, 2008, 2:32pm

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

Pak Patriot, answer me the following questions?

1 - Which other dictator in the world, allows, and promotes and is the reason for 75 private channels? Why were political parties protesting with the lawyers? Why were the lawyers protesting with political parties?

2 - Why was Aitraaz Ahsan, a known senior politican for the PPP, leading the case against Musharraff? Shouldn’t a non-politically affiliated lawyer lead the case? With Aitraaz Ahsan leading the case, would that not mean that the lawyers movement was politically charged?

3 - Did Musharraff not respect the initial judgement of the Supreme Court’s reinstatement of the Chief Justice? Would a dictator do that?

4 - Name me any recent politician who did better than Musharraff for the economy? Give me economic figures, like I have given you in my previous posts.

5 - Name me any other politician who confronted Bugti ( A man who has his own private army, a man who attacks Pakistani gas pipelines)? Or do you enjoy having war lords in Pakistan?

6 - Tell me, does the Chief Justice of any country have the right to state that he/she will get rid of their country’s president? If not, then why did the Chief Justice make that statement? And if such a statatement was made, would it not be in the Presidents authority to depose him for making such a statement?

7- Would any responsible Chief Justice, postpone the case of whether the President of a country is eligible to be re-elected as President for two weeks so that he can attend his daughters wedding, leaving the country in anarcy and confusion? Would a such a decision create anarchy and confusion? Would such a decision, prove the Chief Justice to be incompetent, and irresponsible?

8- Which politician would not allow the U.S to attack Afganistan after 9/11? Which politician would not have attacked the Lal Masjid? Which politican would not send the army to fight Al-Queda and Taliban in the northern areas?

9 - Name one politician under whose leadership corruption was as low as it was under Musharraffs? (There still is a long way to go) Go to the international corruption idex site, and prove to me that in the recent history, there was a non-Musharraff government where corruption was lower than it is today. Give me facts and figures?

10 - Did Musharaff not get elected according the constitution? Did 60% of the assemble vote for him? Is 60% enought to make him President? So why then the uproar?

Answer me these questions, without running around in circles. Give me facts and figures, not what you think, or what he/she said.

Don’t give me what you think, what you heard, give me to the point answers with facts and figures.

When you answer these questions, you’ll realize, Baap kaun hain (Musharraff) aur Hijra kaun hain (The rest)

Spock · January 1, 2008, 5:17pm

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

Saleem I wont reply to the 500 para long reply you posted to mine... But just one thing, only people like you would consider that sham referundum of 2002 legitimate, so you cant use those silly things to jutify Musharraf's self imposition in power. 95% vote, yeah right!

paki_man · January 1, 2008, 7:37pm

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

When the referendum happened, in 2002, his popularity was at it's peak. No one can dispute that the overwhelming majority of Pakistanis wanted him to remain President at that time. Furthermore, no one complained in 2002, when his results were read, people are only complaining now.

Aalsi · January 1, 2008, 9:21pm

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

yazdi:

Aalsi I totally agree with you as nothing will ever change in Pakistan…so why to change this dictator… Pakistan is as unstable and undemocratic and unpredictable today as it was the day Bhutto returned to the country. And it is as unstable and undemocratic and unpredictable as it was before the notion of her return to the country was even conceivable.
And it is as unstable and undemocratic and unpredictable today as it would have been in a few weeks when Bhutto gained control of the country.

Because nothing in Pakistan ever changes.

Corrupt governments replace corrupt governments. Politicians, military generals, democratically elected leaders are killed, jailed, or chased out of the country only to be replaced by their clones.

When Pervez Musharraf seized control of the country from Nawaz Sharif, some Pakistanis were hopeful that he would be a force for good.

They were willing to look past the fact that he had deposed a democratically elected prime minister because they feared that Sharif was on the verge of becoming a dictator.

But others knowingly cautioned. “Just wait,” they said. “Time will tell,” they said.

Then Musharraf became the dictator and as Bhutto - a leader once removed from power and disgraced by corruption charges - looked set to take back control, those same words were uttered. “Just wait,” they said again.

They’ll never know if that cynicism was warranted the third time around.

And as they have in the past, the world will look to the Pakistani Army for certainty. And instead of rebuking a renewed declaration of martial law, they’ll welcome it. As will many Pakistanis.

They’ll play up the credentials of Pakistan’s new army chief, General Ashfaq Kayani.

“A professional soldier,” they’ll call him. A graduate of the Command and General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth in Kansas, we’ll be reminded. It will serve as a reassurance that the man who now controls the only constant force in Pakistan can also be seen as a friend.

And investors will say “that’s good enough for us.” Stocks in Pakistan will rise again, and foreign investors will return - even more prepared this time for the risks - and oil prices and gold prices will ease and credit spreads will narrow.

And those who call for elections, and democracy and rule of law in Pakistan will be looked at as trouble makers.

“What’s important now is stability,” they’ll be told. And stability will return in three years or five years of renewed military rule.

And nothing will change…

Very good post Yazdi.

I still believe that things will change with regards to grass roots politics in Pakistan. Foundations of which have been laid. However, my disappointemnt is that the untimely death of BB and the chaos has put things back.

I felt there were positive tones of reconciliation from BB (whether she would have won the elections or not). However, the ‘Appointement’ of Zardari as Chairman of PPP through a ‘WILL’, has put an end to any talk of so-called ‘real democracy’ PPP stood for or the so-called democratization of Pakistan.

The crisis of the past 6 days have shown that there is nobody capable of stabilising Pakistan, other than the Army. The so-called Political Parties, the Champions of Democracy, have failed Pakistan as seen in the past few days.

God Bless Pakistan.

pagalhihoye · January 1, 2008, 9:36pm

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

as long as there is no restriction on day dreaming so keep on dreaming

Prince_Abbas · January 1, 2008, 10:18pm

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

And what did they end up doing? :)
Funny thing is that the incompetent na-pak generals put the blame of their failed policies against Qaeda on CJ. :)

[quote]
Looks beyond your little world and see what others are thinking and saying.
[/quote]

Why don't YOU think beyond your little "muhajir" world of pir-ji-kallan?

Khehkeshan · January 2, 2008, 12:27am

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

What did who end up doing? Have even ever talked to a pashtun from pakistan in real life?

Reza_Pahlavi · January 2, 2008, 3:35am

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

paki_man:

People go and and on about him being a dcitator. But If I ask them, under whose governance they had more freedom, they either blindly lie, or don’t say anything.

Why didn’t civilian governments open 75 private channels?

Journalists in Pakistan, all concur that they’ve never had as much freedom before. Imran Khan calls Musharraff bad names, on live tv. If Musharraff was a dictator, than Imran Khan’s body would not have been found.

People also claim that he has done nothing for the economy, that there is inflation, and poverty. To them I say, stop talking from your behind, and face the truth.

The poverty rate declined, the GDP increased at an average of atleast 6% during his rule. The stock exchange was twice named the world’s best stock exchange.

People also claim, that he sacked a “proper” judiciary.

My friend, he got reports of corruption, so he sacked the chief justice, but allowed him to appeal his decision. The chief justice, unfortunatly allied himself with political groups and himself became a politician.

People forget, Musharraff accepted the Supreme Courts decision…he has the army under him, and he’s the President. If he wanted to, he could have made the Chief Justice “accidentally” fall down the stairs. But NO, he RESPECTED, the supreme Courts decision.

Musharraff sacked the old judges due to incompetence. The entire world was waiting what the Supreme Courts verdict would be regarding Musharraff’s eligibility for being President, and guess what, the Chief Justice, takes two weeks off for his daughters wedding, leaving the country in limbo. How selfish of the chief justice! How incompetent?

Musharraff is no dog of the U.S, if anything, he has to put up with failed politicians who go crying to the U.S to pressure on him to allow them to return. In return…they obviously will do favours for them.

Musharraff declared emergency, REGARDLESS of what the Americans wanted him to do.

You people are blind, perhaps you people want a Prime Minister, who’ll steal $1.5 billion, or a politican who will name himself, “Supreme Islamic Ruler” and then send his Army Chief to India, in a time of war.

When I ask you?, give me facts and figures, that politicans were better than him…no one does!

All you anti - Musharraff people, have no official facts and figures, you only try to prove your point with ill-educated arguments filled with bias and hate.

You, anti - Musharraff have fit perfectly, into the hands of those who have a conspiracy against Pakistan…Bravo Bravo, may you sleep well at night, knowing you’re one of the reasons why Pakistan will become the prostitute of the world! Bravo

Excellent post. No one can challenge the facts you have stated. :k:

Prince_Abbas · January 2, 2008, 3:38am

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

What is Pak Military doing in Swat?

Spock · January 2, 2008, 3:41am

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

yeah sure! Even Quaid-e-azam wouldnt get a 95% majority! Does Saddam Hussain ring a bell?

system · January 2, 2008, 3:43am

Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.

Mush supporters…

I dont think any of them are over 15 to be honest…