Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
After Zardari’s coup against the PPP, there are many new reasons for Musharraf to stay. All the predictions of 2007 about him being ousted from power at every turn have been proved false, as we enter 2008 with the same crowd groping again. This time round they don’t even the reason that democracy will replace Musharraf - it will be power through a will! 
Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
He did it for Pakistan's sake. Everything is not about a person's ego, like your arrogant Immy who would have ordered to launch nukes on everyone if he was in Mushy's place on 9/11. That is why jihadi supporters like you are a threat to the whole world, because you people instead of thinking with your brains, think with your you know what.
Your ignorance is reaching new skies. You can't see the real problem, the core problem. You can't see Army's role in breaking the country, you can't see Army's role in making wrong decision in 1979 to jump into another country's war and falling in US lap completely, you can't see the hypocracy Zia did with the fellow countrey men, you can't see the root of jihadiz (CIA funded madrasaas across Pakistan built in 80s), drug smuggling and AK47 culture (including MQM mafia), the stupidist Kargil war and then blind following of US orders after 9/11.
Instead of accepting Mush's wrong decisions, you start attacking on the poster and divert the discussion. I have seen this strategy by other pro Mush posters as well. I am not the supporter of any Jihadiz, now I was during Afghan war either. I always thought of it as Pakistan's unusual interfernce in somebody' else problem. It was military dictator Zia who in the name of Islam, fooled the nation, scared them of Red Army and their program to conquere warm waters. You know all that bull that we used to get in 80s from government. Now Zia's successor did the same mistake. You guys think there was no other way to deal with the 9/11 situation. This is the sadest situation, this is the lack of leadership in the nation that makes us think like loser in the world. Can you see, after all those sacrifices Pakistan is discussed in the international media as FAILED STATE and a COUNTRY THAT IS FALLING APART. This is the gift that Zia received after serving US for 11 years and Mush is seeing the same fate. There is no enlightened moderation. This is all happening as planned. These Jahil Mullah's, suicide dogs on our streets, those $17 Billion aid that military now will have to give audit to US, the political vaccum and leadership crises will soon conclude in a undesireable fashion.
The real culprits of Pakistan is establishment and Military who have been dancing on US tunes since day one. Politians, MQM (other racial orgz) and Jihadiz are just by prouducts of the two real rulers of Pakistan.
Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
Unprecedented growth, and perfect law and order condtiotions 
! LOL… Alsi Mia, stick to your one liners, those are far more sensical and credible!
BTW, can you share some of what your smoking?
Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
So, Democracy is no longer the reason, as champion of democracy themselves have put this on the shelf. President Musharaf looks stronger by the day - especially as 2007 was allegedly his worst year ever. 
Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
LOL.. And you have some insight into whats happening in NWFP! Please inform us, ince obviously your the only one with eneough intelligence to deduce whats going on…
I suppose ISI, Osma and Taliban must have a direct phone line to your house telling you EVERYTHING!
The fact of the matter is, that Mush sponsored a peace deal with these terrorists! A PEACE DEAL WITH TERRORISTS! This peace deal allowed the Taliban and Al Qaeda to regroup and increase their activites. Now the situation is even worse…
Even when they were able to capture 300 soldiers they couldnt do anything… Mush govt actually let free about 35 known terrorists in exchange for those soldiers!
Mush has audacity of blaming the CJ of letting go of teroriists when his own govt has done the same exact thing! Ofcourse, thats meaningless to blind dictator followers.
Not only this, but Mush is incapable of and reluctant to do anything about them even now.
Where is the great ground offensive to control the FATA?
Why is it that despite having intelligence linking the Taliban to whats happening, we still dont have any ground offensive against the Taliban?
While brilliant political analysts like you go after “jihadi supporters” such as the Lawyers, media and judiciary, the Taliban go scot free bloowing up anything the deem as UnIslamic! Wonder why that is?!?!
Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
Stalin and Hitler were also strong… At least we can be proud of Mush for giving Pakistan the distinction of having a dictator to rival Stalin and Hitler! Thats an awesome achievment! 
Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
Musharraf is a loyal Pakistani and a brave man. He is not an ordinary politician like BB or NS etc. He is an experienced commando and is trained to win a war using smart strategies. Selig Harrison, director of the Asia Program at the Center for International Policy in Washington said that "Musharraf has blinded Washington over and over again with a mastery of blackmail.
Instead of going against the war on terrorism which would have meant heavy sanctions against an already bankrupt country plus the possibility of Pakistan becoming another battle ground for the sake of mullahs he chose to play a very smart game with USA. He took their money and built his country.
Other politicians have failed us over and over again. I am surprised that some of us on these forums talk against musharraf when they know that other politicians in pakistan have only looted Pakistan.
By all means go against Musharraf but only if you have a better alternative. There is none.
Don't be a literate Jahil.
Mush is a snake in the grass, there is no doubt... And he is delusional like any dictator, far to self assured, completely convinced of his own importance... Not that anyone else is.
Bravery itself is relative... Benazir I would count as someone far braver then he.
And as for leadership, Mush has created many of the problems Pakistan faces, so cutting him of will atleast prevent new problems from arrising...
And, as to who replaces him, if we put in a genuine democracy, things will sort themselvs out. Bring back the Chief Justice and bring back the free courts. develop stong institutions etc...
Whatever happens, and who ever takes over, will still be a great improvement over this dictator and his tyranical rule.
Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
when the common man/woman begin saying "musharraf khuta" thats should be enough reason for him to go...:-)
Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
So, who wants to oust President Musharaf because they want to bring back democracy to the country? Any PPP supporters here? :)
I wil take Musharaf over Zardari anyday.
Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
Pakistan army gave him office in Oct 1999 and Supreme Court endorsed it, so how can him was holding office illegal?
In 2002, referendum gave him vote to hold that office, than how can holding that office illegal after 2002?
Later in 2004, parliament endorsed him with two-third majority that he can hold office of President and Army chief, than how can that be illegal?
In 2007, over 60 percent of people's representatives ... MNAs, Senaters and MPAs together elected him as president, so how can he be holding office illegally?
[You may have differences and say that referendum was rigged, 2002 assembly was rigged, whatever ... but that rigging claims 'grape is sour' is going on in Pakistani elections by all losers, so you can shout but have to accept that.
Actually, most of PML(Q) candidates are strong candidates and no one can doubt that they could not win election. These were same people that won elections whatever party they contested. MQM is also a party that would win election any time from their constituency. MMA in 2004 also voted for President and no one can say that they won because of rigging. Sherpao also wins election on his own merit. Other MNAs from PML(F), and other parties like National Alliance, etc also could win elections due to their own influences. Rest were independents who won elections and joined PML(Q). Hence you cannot say that people in Assembly were there because of rigging. If that is the case, than one can say that BB won election because of rigging and each of PPP and PML(N) candidates won election because of rigging ... because most PML(Q) candidates win elections in same way as PPP and PML(N) candidates, be that NS or BB, win election ... that is their influence in the constituency].
[quote]
- Torture, murder, kidnapping and extortion of civilians, lawyers, journalists, and politicians
[/quote]
Believe me, I have not seen any Pakistani government that has given so much freedom to people without any suppression as Musharraf government in Pakistanis that they can talk against government and people in power so freely, still moving free in the country.
[quote]
- Being the biggest and spineless american-pithu we have ever seen.
[/quote]
That is your opinion, but again I can say that amongst all past Pakistani rulers (including Bhutto), Musharraf has more spine to stand American pressures. For past Pakistani rulers, American did not needed any permission of Pakistan government to act in Pakistan, and they could have asked government to do whatever they liked.
From 1951 ... till 1999, all Pakistan government were American pitthu and it never happened that USA became so openly against Pakistan 'head of state' that happened after Oct 1999 coup, such that when USA president came to Pakistan, he talked against Musharraf (as happened when Clinton came to Pakistan in 2000-01). It was Sept 2001, that changed things a bit when America started talking and doing business with Pakistan, still there was/is lot of constraint.
Musharraf is the first Pakistani head of state that went to Moscow. He also visited Cuba that I believe no Pakistani head of state did. Musharraf is first Muslim head of state that ever criticized American policy related to Muslims in UN (if you want to, I can post Musharraf speech in UN), Pakistan against the will of USA is still talking to Iran and going for gas pipeline. Pakistan did not sent Pakistan forces to Iraq neither allowed direct action of American forces in Pakistan (officially), neither allowed any western agencies (USA) access to AQ Khan, neither gave a single Pakistani national arrested in Pakistan to foreign country ,,, at least officially (remember Omar case ... murderer of American journalist), and many things ...
Just imagine that when USA attacked Iraq first time, NS government sent army to Middle East but last time they attacked, Pakistan army did not go. When USA wanted to bomb Afghanistan during NS rule, they did not even take permission from Pakistan and used Pakistani space. Today if they go over Pakistani air space, they take permission.
It was NS that allowed American intelligence to come to Pakistan and arrest in Pakistan (without warrants) and take them 'Ramzi and Kansi (both Pakistani national)' to USA without going through Pakistani judiciary or even without caring of any human rights, just because master USA desired (no phone call, just a message from American lowly messenger in Pakistan and NS bent down to his knee).
[quote]
- For multiple scams, kickbacks, bribes, money laundering, along with the ruling Q league kings party, and bringing corruption to an all time high
[/quote]
I think that you are having memory cross over. What you wrote is not Pakistan after October 1999, but Pakistan before Oct 1999
Read Transparency International reports on corruption ... I think that I have already posted it on this forum ... with source as Transparency international own site ... shows that 92 percent (92 out of 100 Pakistanis) believes that NS and BB government was most corrupt government in Pakistan, whereas only 3 percent thought that Musharraf government is corrupt.
[quote]
- For giving pardon to criminals, including terrorists and murderers
[/quote]
Again that is your opinion. It is fact that past corrupt Pakistani politicians use to victimize their political opponents and thus to take off old cases (pre-Oct 1999) that were not concluded yet from Pakistani courts is not pardoning but reconciliation (it could be called incompetence of Pakistani Judges that cases did not got concluded or because cases were so weak or due to victimization, whatever).
Just imagine that when NRO came, still it excluded all cases initiated after Oct 1999. It shows that any corruptions done by Musharraf government or politicians during last 8 years are not given any pardon. That also shows that, Musharraf government is not corrupt and that is why they did not included the period after Oct 1999.
[quote]
- For opening multiple war fronts in Pakistan and the murder of innocent Pakistanis.
[/quote]
Multiple war fronts? I thought that at moment war front is only against Fisadis (foreign criminals and their agents ... like A-Q and Taliban) within the country.
As for murdering innocent Pakistanis, I don't know of any case. If you are thinking of criminals that were fighting government and got killed (like lal-Masjid goons or rebels in Swat and Waziristan) that you may believe as innocent Pakistanis, than I have no sympathy with them neither I believe them as innocent. [All criminals consider themselves innocents, though they are still criminals]
[quote]
- For handing over Pakistanis to foriegn authorities, without any credible evidence, over a matter of a few thousand dollars.
[/quote]
I never knew that Pakistanis are handed to foreign authorities and that is news to me. I think that you are considering those Chechnians, Arabs, Afghans, XYZ as Pakistanis, but to me they are better given away to whoever wants them. As for Pakistani nationals, only those got taken away who were arrested in Afghanistan. As far as I know, anyone that claims differently, are lying.
As for handing these crooks to foreign authorities for few thousand dollars, that is good deal. I would hand them over free, rather pay to get rid of them :)
[quote]
- For imposing illegal measures to stop the media from being free
[/quote]
Imposing illegal measures? What? are you saying that media is not free? Bhai, you are in Musharraf Pakistan where media is not only free but they are in plenty, who are lying right left and center still are getting tolerated. Before Oct 1999, there was only one electronic media, that was 'state media' ... and as for print media, in those days they could not print anything that government could not tolerate :)
To tell media that not to defame anyone or lie and if they do, they can get sued ... that is not imposing illegal measures, that means to bring decency in media (else unfortunately when media got free by Musharraf, they became maadar-pidar-Azaad).
[quote]
- For ousting the free judiciary through illegal means
[/quote]
You mean government sent their hooligans to attack judiciary or called them kangaroo courts?
Well, what I know that to make judiciary independent and free, Musharraf government not only increased their wages many folds but accepted most of their legal verdicts, such that disgraced ex-CJ 'Iftikhar' started dreaming that he is 'chief martial law administrator cum Prime Minister' and other judges start thinking that government is their slaves and they are government who can do corruption, nepotism, misuse of power and whatever, until time came when government showed them the door by pulling their ears and throwing them out.
If judiciary is not working properly than government gets blame. Government all over the world has right to get investigated and get rid of corrupt judges. Musharraf government tried to get corrupt ex-CJ investigated through SJC, but corrupt judges stopped that, so they were shown the door. No problem. Nevertheless, no government can tolerate judges that are involved in all sorts of corruptions, nepotism and misuse of power.
This is what happens when those who are mentally sick and corrupt to the core, like most Pakistani pre- Nov 2007 judges, that when they were given respect, pay rise and freedom, they started thinking like corrupt 'DON'. They deserved all what they got. I think that they should not be given pension as they were sacked because they did not took new oath government asked, and did not retired to deserve pension.
[quote]
- Murder of political opponents
[/quote]
Who? You mean Dr Nazeer (of JI) or Kasuri? ... or do you mean Zahur Illahi or Z A Bhutto? Or do you mean Shahnawaz Bhutto or Murtuza Bhutto? Or do you mean all those pre-1999 political murders?
Maybe you mean a dumb idiot (BB) who was given a lot of security as well as bullet proof and bomb proof car ... still she poked her head in public to get shot at? :)
It is surprise that Musharraf government was so kind to her that they give so much security to opposition leader and instruction that not to poke her head out in public, still unfortunately she was fool to get killed. Still if you are calling that as murder by government, I think that I give up :)
[quote]
- Failure to provide security to Pakistanis
[/quote]
How come? Well, when Pakistan has retard Fisadis (aka A-Q, Taliban and their supporters) running all around Pakistan, a country where in early 1977 terrorist court was established, terrorist court that was first of its kind in the world ... a country where 100s of thousands migrated abroad during 1990s to save their lives, providing security is not so easy.
Government has two choice, either to leave Fisadis to do what they are good at, like imposing their will on others ... blowing girls school, kidnapping women or throwing acid on them ... or cutting people neck who they do not like ... killing all who are different to their sect ... or give these fisadis a good stick that make them come out of their piiig-hole and do some fisad before they get killed. I prefer second choice that may cause immediate problems but would clean Pakistan from Fisadis. It is best to fight them than do nothing.
Anyhow, still considering the amount of tax government collects is so pitiful; how come government provides reasonable security is very difficult to guess.
Total federal tax collection: It was 4 billion dollars a year in 1999 ... and today (in 2007) it is 14 billion dollars a year ... that to serve a country of 160 million ... comes to less than 12 pence (24 cents) per head per day ... and from that 12 pence ... 7 pence goes on paying interest on debt (most taken by past rulers ... before 1999), than with 5 pence per head a year that is left, to give whatever little facilities to people as well as defend the country, I think that to really provide security is big deal. One should pay tax before asking.
I do not think that BB and NS pays more than few hundred dollars tax a year and expect to be treated like King ... Bas***d. :). Well, they are not exception, as I do not think that Imran Khan or Qazi even pay a penny tax (if they do, find it out :) ) ... or for that matter, most of Pakistani politicians do not pays much tax. Thus they deserve no security at all.
[quote]
- For being a pathetic waste of skin and a dictator that enjoys 0 popularity amongst people.
[/quote]
Sorry to say, but there is no such thing as 0 popularity :). Even on this forum Musharraf as well as PML (Q) has some popularity and that shows that what you wrote is just farce :) It is matter of opinion, but fact is that a person popularity can only be known if there is election and those who have zero (or negligible) popularity are boycotting the election making excuses of rigging (like Imran Khan, Qazi, etc).
Pakistani election as happens in past would happen this time too, and most likely it would be fair more than past, but nevertheless ... as for results, losers would always call their loosing election is due to rigging. Claim by people of rigging in election is Pakistani way of saying that they are losers.
Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
Sa1eem, wonderful reply by you. These people, either because of lack of understanding, or lack of will to understand the truth, shout and scream and post statements that the enemies of Pakistan want them to spread.
Musharraff is evil, he's a dictator, wa wa wa wa
They fail to realize that he's the only "dictator" in the world, which gave his country 75 private channels in 7 years.
Believe me buddy, he was a dictator, the "common man" would not be able to say " Mushuraff kuta". It's a testament to the great man, that even with such power, he has shown composure and patience.
I don't understand what people have against the army and Musharraff. I'm not talking about Zia's army, I'm talking about 1999 onwards. If people were to neglect the past 6 months, they will realize that the past 8-9 years have the best in Pakistan's history. The past 6 months should be neglected, because money thirsty selfish pigs dressed as politicians started to destabalize Pakistan, intentionally.
How convinient it is that Aitraaz Ahsan, led the lawyers movement, while being a senior leader of the PPP. Some people just can't connect the dots can they? EVEN IF ITS RIGHT INFRONT OF THEM!
God forbid if something happens happens to Musharraff the days, of being opeanly declared a failed state will come back. The days of 30 people being killed in Karachi in cold blood will be back. The days of threat of war, with other countries will be back. Sunni, shia fighting will start again. People will start to be mass murdered in mosques, like they used to be before Musharraff.
Musharraff is the one that stopped all this evil, no one else did, or could have, or can.
Pakistan progressed, socially, economically, and politically in the past 8-9 years more than it has ever.
I challenge anyone to tell me of a period of 8-9 years, in Pakistan, that have been better than the one's under Musharraff.
I Challenge anyone to prove to me, that any politican, with the exception of Quaid - E - Azam, has done more for Pakistan.
I Challenge anyone to debate on who can be a better President than Musharraff in the upcoming year of 2008.
I challenge anyone, the ball is in your court, prove to me...and i'll prove you wrong.
Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
With that said, Happy, early or belated New Years to everyone
Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
^ You know what else is still popular in Pakistan, Alcahol, but we still ban it!
Mush could have 2 supporters left in the whole country and you would still consder that enough to declare him popular and having thwe right to continue ruling...
In a democracy, Mush would have been voted out a long time ago...
And Mush is currently NOT the president... Why? Well, the Court had yet to declare him as president. He can't be president unless the Court approves it... But since he illegally sacked the Supreme Court, and no verdict was given, he is currently not the President.. Legally speaking.
He didnt even have the authority to call the emergency since he wasnt the President when he called IT.. He was the COAS, so he could have undertaken another coup, but that would be illegal and the CJ would still be the legal CJ.
So infact, Mush has no real authority what so ever.
Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
President Musharraff's unpopularity is due to the actions of an incompetent judiciary, and an incompetent opposition. Unlike other politicians, his unpopularity is not due to bad governance, or bad economic formulas, or to the lack of freedom.
The opposition and the judiciary for the past 6 months have done everything to create anarchy...It seems they have succeded. But Musharraff is a commando, he's withstood every challenge thrown at him so far, and inshallah he will withstand this.
WELL SAID, :biggthumb
UNFORTUNATLY WE HAVE TO MANY BLIND HATERS AND BLIND PEOPLE SUPPORTING GANJA AND BIBI OR NOW ZADARI, LOL
Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
Sa1eem, wonderful reply by you. These people, either because of lack of understanding, or lack of will to understand the truth, shout and scream and post statements that the enemies of Pakistan want them to spread.
Musharraff is evil, he's a dictator, wa wa wa wa
They fail to realize that he's the only "dictator" in the world, which gave his country 75 private channels in 7 years.
Believe me buddy, he was a dictator, the "common man" would not be able to say " Mushuraff kuta". It's a testament to the great man, that even with such power, he has shown composure and patience.
I don't understand what people have against the army and Musharraff. I'm not talking about Zia's army, I'm talking about 1999 onwards. If people were to neglect the past 6 months, they will realize that the past 8-9 years have the best in Pakistan's history. The past 6 months should be neglected, because money thirsty selfish pigs dressed as politicians started to destabalize Pakistan, intentionally.
How convinient it is that Aitraaz Ahsan, led the lawyers movement, while being a senior leader of the PPP. Some people just can't connect the dots can they? EVEN IF ITS RIGHT INFRONT OF THEM!
God forbid if something happens happens to Musharraff the days, of being opeanly declared a failed state will come back. The days of 30 people being killed in Karachi in cold blood will be back. The days of threat of war, with other countries will be back. Sunni, shia fighting will start again. People will start to be mass murdered in mosques, like they used to be before Musharraff.
Musharraff is the one that stopped all this evil, no one else did, or could have, or can.
Pakistan progressed, socially, economically, and politically in the past 8-9 years more than it has ever.
I challenge anyone to tell me of a period of 8-9 years, in Pakistan, that have been better than the one's under Musharraff.
I Challenge anyone to prove to me, that any politican, with the exception of Quaid - E - Azam, has done more for Pakistan.
I Challenge anyone to debate on who can be a better President than Musharraff in the upcoming year of 2008.
I challenge anyone, the ball is in your court, prove to me...and i'll prove you wrong.
once again, nicly put and bringing the facts out to blind people
Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
With that said, Happy, early or belated New Years to everyone
Happy new year to you too and all on the forum :)
And yea ... you are right about last 8 years, no doubt. Actually, I think that what happened during last 6 to 8 months is because Musharraf is mentally not dictator and people took advantage to that. Else, it would have been easy for Musharraf to get rid of Iftikhar if he wanted to without making so much fuss of going through proper means of using SJC ... rather he should have used normal means of ... holding the ear and throwing him out. Well, eventually Musharraf had to do and did in November 1999.
Actually, Musharraf did not even needed to declare emergency to do what he did after Nov 1999. He should have used the ways what all Pakistani rulers had used in past, that is to give a kick regardless of emergency or not. If I was in place of Musharraf, I would have done all good I wanted to do and would have treated these corrupts and goons the way they deserved to get treated.
Pakistan needs decent person like Musharraf for Nation, but not for corrupts and goons of Judiciary, Media and Politics. They need danda and that is what they deserve.
Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
LOL… Every point you make is full of holes.
Mush DID nothing to help the countries ethnic and religous strife… He has made it far worse…
Its ridiculous to think that Mush is the one who stopped it! And he is the only one that can! LOL, this is a country of 160 million, and Mush is the only one capable enough to handle its problems?!?!
People are still calling Pakistan a failed state… Even Pakistanis are tired of it.
The common man can say Musharaf kuta because Mush doesnt care what the people think… As a dictator, his concern is with his chair, not what the people think of him… The fact that the comon man calls him kuta should make it obvious how bad the situation has become.
Dictator didnt give us freedom of the press and 75 channels… Its the constitution which declares Paksitan a free country.
In these 8-9 years, we have had an increase in violence, more economic desparity, more resentment within the country then ever before… Education is crippled, Terrorists are running around scot free…
Who are you try ing to kid? The dots are infront of you, why cant you connect them?
Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
Unjustly sacking the Chief Justice and hoarding all the power doesnt make him a dictator? Chinging the Constituion on a whim and having no repect for the rule of law doesnt make him a dictator? Come on! 
The last 8 months have been bad because he IS a dictator, not becuase he isnt!
Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
WELL SAID, :biggthumb UNFORTUNATLY WE HAVE TO MANY BLIND HATERS AND BLIND PEOPLE SUPPORTING GANJA AND BIBI OR NOW ZADARI, LOL
We support democracy, not any one political...Mush supporters blindly follow a dictator..
Re: New Reasons for Ousting Pesident Musharaf.
Pakistani ayesee hee quam hay bhai … In Pakistan you do not send reference to SJC .. you give a danda insdie them and throw them out. When Musharraf sent reference to SJC against Iftikhar, Musharraf did a big sin.