Nawab Akbar Bugti Killed (MERGED)

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Burning of Pakistani flag and dafacing Quaid-e-Azam's portrait

I am sick of this nonsense about panjabi army. Of course Panjab has the most population and there will be more panjabis in the army. Why dont other ethnicities join the army? Govt. is trying its level best to recruit from all over Pakistan but they cant force people to join. Ayub Khan, Yehya Khan, Musa Khan, Aslam beg, Waheed kaker and now Pervaiz Musharraf none of these are panjabis. Jawans just take orders, they have no part in policy issues So stop being so ignorant and narrow minded and stop blaming the army in gerneral. Go after the specific clowns who are responsible like when East Pakistan seperated, Yehya khan was incharge not the ordinary panjabi jawan. They did whatever they were ordered to do!!!

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Re: Burning of Pakistani flag and dafacing Quaid-e-Azam’s portrait

Achcha? Big Tind was surounded by WRONG people bhaijaan otherwise he wasn’t that bad at all- trust me. He did a lot of construction activities that no one did. He got sectaraian violence stuff from Zia. I guess Bibi with 10% discount was the worst of all- I hate that guy looks like a kala chooha(black hairy rat). Unfortunately, it has become a trend to curse the Punjabis for all the problems without appreciating for them the sacrifices.. Recently, I was in an Indian restaurant in Houston and the waiter happened to be a Karachite. While talking, he said, “Yaar aap logon(Punjabis) ne tu mulk ko barbaad kar diya hai”. Needless to say, he didn’t get any tip from me :grumpy:

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Re: Burning of Pakistani flag and dafacing Quaid-e-Azam’s portrait

Great stuff :k: yaar u r 100% right. All they do is blame Punjabis for everything. what wrong have we done? Instead of joining MQM, if youths of Karachi joined the army, they would have brought honors for the family, and their communities.

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Re: Burning of Pakistani flag and dafacing Quaid-e-Azam’s portrait

You should have reminded the waiter that Musharaf and Shaukat Aziz arent Punjabis..

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Re: Burning of Pakistani flag and dafacing Quaid-e-Azam’s portrait

Lahore is certainly also our prostitution capital. I’m sure you’re proud of that too. Punjabis made Pakistan what it has become today? You mean Taliban, Bangladesh, Kargil, etc.?

And the most corrupt overall has been the army which is still 90% Punjabi. And Ch. Shujaat is not an exception sadly. But whatever helps you sleep at night.

pakpatriot, never said only punjabis were responsible, but is it not a fact that without punjabi support no army general could lead the military? When all is said and done, the people of Jehlum have more direct influence in the army then even those of Karachi.

nstar, then isn’t it time for punjabis to WAKE UP and stop following stupid and criminal orders like killing inocent bengalis, balochis or mohajirs? Do you not think those jawans and officers bear some responsibility for killing their own countrymen?

Blind faith in the army is sadly strongest in Punjab and until that changes we will continue to see generals exploiting Punjabis to get power for themselves and their chaudris/sardars/waderas etc. Without support of Punjab, army regime will fall and that is the power that Punjab holds. Musharraf can be gone tomorrow, but the basic power structure will remain.

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Re: Burning of Pakistani flag and dafacing Quaid-e-Azam’s portrait

You have to be more specific here, how through punjabi support does an army general lead the army.If you mean that every general needs the support of his troops then yes…
How does Punjab control the Army? The people of Jhelum may have many people joining the Army, but they dont have any real control over the army… There have been instances where people from the very heart of Army recruiting grounds have been exploited despite their protests. Although I agree that Punjabis do support the Army the most, that certainly doesnt mean that Punjab is the one propping up these generals.
As for killing of their own people, correct me if im wrong, but the killing of Mohajirs occured during the Bhutto regime and not the army rule, and Mohajirs were far from helpless. And Armies have followed stupid orders in many places throughout history, its not something confined to Punjabis.. Its the collective psychy of an army..
The Indian Army which isnt controlled by Punjabis has been guilty of killing Kashmiris, and even sikhs.
American troops have followed stupid orders all throught this war on Iraq…
If the Army just happened to be filled with Mohajirs and not Punjabis, the same innocents would have been killed in Bangladesh or anywhere else.
Ultimately, I do agree that the Punjabies have gained most from the army, but that is due to the fact that they join in large enough numbers to make a difference in their province. If the smaller ethnic/linguistic groups feel they are under represented, then why do they not join the army en masse and make a difference. Why is it that when the Army is OBVIOUSLY where the power lies, that other provinces dont start joing the army all out.
Its ridiculous that the Baloch or Sindh regimen is still primarily Punjabi!

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Re: Nawab Akbar Bugti Killed (MERGED)

We can go in circles debating each other, as usually happens, or I can just ask you this question.

If people of Punjab were overwhelmingly against Musharraf, could he stay in power for more then 6 months? Think carefully before you answer this.

As for why more non Punjabis don't join the army, this is a catch-22 situation. Many non Punjabis simply do not trust the army and resent its control over Pakistan, which makes them not join. But also because areas in Punjab and NWFP have a family tradition of people joining them and there is not much space left for others to join from rest of the country. It is the responsibility of the army to go out into remote areas of Pakistan and promote the army, but that effort has been half-hearted at best. But the biggest problem is the actions of army rulers which have usually been pro-Punjab on most occasions, even if they themselves are not Punjabi. They know to maintain power they have to agree with the Punjabi masses. That is what stops the army from becoming a true national army that has the interests of every Pakistani at heart. Such an army would never have killed Bugti or followed orders to kill Bengalis, because both actions were anti-Pakistan.

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Re: Nawab Akbar Bugti Killed (MERGED)

It is not unusual for Armies to be dominated by people from certain regions or ethnicities. Thats not the issue after all ..the problem is when the Army gets involved in politics it goes without saying the primary beneficiaries will be people from the areas it is from..secondlythe Army mind is based on friend or foe and nothing in between..that works in battle but not in politics.

Anyway this is turning away from Bugtis death:

Balochistan situation worsening: Jamali
Talking to the reporters at the parliament house Friday, he said: “I am looking Balochistan scenario bad and we should take wise decisions to control the Balochistan situation.”

He was not ready to accept government stance that Nawab Akbar Bugti was a traitor. To a question, he said late Nawab Bugti was one among the royal Jirga who cast vote in favour of Pakistan and Balochistan annexation with Pakistan.

Punjab should play its role to save federation: seminar

Sajjad Malik

ISLAMABAD: Politicians and civil society representatives have said Punjab should play its political role to keep the country clear of any impending difficulty that might befall on the country after the death on Nawab Akbar Khan Bugti.

Speaking at seminar on ‘The Killing of Nawab Akbar Bugti and Unrest in Balochistan’ organised by Action Aid here Friday, they said the Punjab being the power house of the country should openly condemn the military operation and support the Baloch people in their just struggle to get their rights.

Makhdoom Shah Mehmood Qureshi of PPP said the Punjab should rise to champion the cause of smaller provinces. “The onus lies on Punjab, if it is not going to rise then the state would go into slumber,” he warned.

He said during the arduous history of the country only ‘players’ had changed but the system had remained intact. He accused that those call for the change in the system are termed as ‘idiots’ by the so called ‘know all’ junta that enjoys ignoring the voice of the people.

He also criticised Federal Minister Dr Sher Afgan Niazi, saying the minister on the floor of the assembly called Nawab Bugti as a terrorist and what happened to him was right. He said such statements had only served to weaken the federation.

Qureshi also said army operation was not the solution of the Balochistan issue as the Balochistan problem was basically political and it should be solved politically. He also said army as a national institution had its constitutional role and it should confine itself to the stated role.

Dr Abdul Hayee Baloch of Balochistan National Party (BNP) in his impassioned address called on Punjab to show that it stood with the people of Balochistan in the hour of crisis. He said it was heartening that not a single person had so far supported the military action that led to the killing of Nawab Bugti.

He deplored that he independence in 1947 had not brought the real freedom to the masses. “Today we all are slaves to a spineless establishment that imposes taxes and then kills us for not doing its biddings,” he said.

During his speech, broken by his uncontrolled tears and choked throat, Dr Baloch said the military had been bombing them for crimes they never committed. He said his people were being killed, kidnapped, and humiliated but they were not allowed even to protest. “We are bombarded with most modern bombs, planes are used to kill our people and destroy our homes, and the state has used brute force, the extent of might that was not used by India in Held Kashmir,” he accused.

Balancing his emotions with arguments he said the state had crossed all limits but the Baloch consider themselves as integral part of the federation and the current crisis can be handled if the main political parties come forward and show their unflinching support for the people of Balochistan.

Civil society representative, Hina Jilani said army and Pakistan were incompatible and the sooner the military went back to the barracks the better it would be for the nation. She said the people in Pakistan were living in extended colonial system. Participants in question answer session demanded that political parties should resign from the assemblies and the exiled leadership should come back to mobilise the masses against the killing of Nawab Bugti in army operation.

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Re: Nawab Akbar Bugti Killed (MERGED)

Moving speech by Dr Abdul Hayee Baloch. I don't envy his position. The army that itself fails to follow its constitutional role has no right to declare others as traitors or terrorists. I fear Jamali might be the next to be termed a traitor. But it's good to hear the near universal condemnation of the brutal war machine bought on Balochistan. Now the Punjabi masses also need to join this struggle and overthrow the anti-Pakistan generals.

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Re: Nawab Akbar Bugti Killed (MERGED)

Your going to have to explain to me how Punjab influences the Army and how lack of support of the Punjab can cause Musharaf to be out of bussiness. I agree that Punjabis have to be more active in denouncing this, and in supporting the smaller provinces, but thats up to the Leadership in Punjab, which itself isnt very representative. Punjabi masses simply dont realize what happens outside their province. I think they are just pleasantly unaware.

As for more Punjabis not joining the Army… Your an intelligent man im sure, and so are the political leaders and others in the smaller provinces. Its doesnt take genius to realize that Pakistani army is where the power truly lies. If you feel that Pakistan Army is flawed, then it should be up to you to join and try to change it. You just throwing stones from outside. This isnt like protesting what the American Army does in Iraq or what the Indian Army or Israeli Army does in Kashmir or Lebanon. This is your own country. You have to be more proactive here. Why not tell your friends and relatives to start joingint the army. End the Punjabi domination.
As for Bengalis… You seem to ignore some of my other arguments.
You seem to just try to deflect blame from your community onto some other. And I seriously DONT THINK THE PUNJABI MASSES as you call them are out to hurt the intrests of smaller groups. I dont think you have met enough of the Punjabi masses to make such a bold statement.
And a question for you is, how would the Bengali situation have been different if the Army were truly representativce of the entire country?
We have all seen what the mohajir community is capable of.. Some of the stuff that went on in Karachi was infamous. So I dont understand how you can claim that barbarity is limited to a certain group. Mohajirs went all out to protect their intrests and if one were to believe hypothetically, that the Mohajirs were in charge back in 1971, wouldnt they have handled the situation the same way as they did in Karachi…

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Re: Nawab Akbar Bugti Killed (MERGED)

Army is 90 percent Punjabi. Source? Also I'd like to see the ethnic make-up of the top decision making structures of the organization. You know sometimes dictators like to surround themselves with other generals like Moeen-ud-din Haider and Tanvir Naqvi who're tasked to restructure the civil and political power apparatus, and once semi-political forces take over they join some stink-tank to keep themselves part of the system in some unique way.

Why does Iltaf militia remain tied to the apron strings of Musharraf, while their workers are waging a struggle against the army here? Are they afraid of ISI and army because these two institutions are the main obstacles in the path of Iltaf militia establishing its 'dadageeri' in Karachi? Obviously its hard to justify the role Iltaf militia played in the past, so the best tactic is to discredit your enemy (Army) in the eyes of local populace. This way Iltaf bhai can retain all power and sing 'Dadageeeeri, apun ki dadageeri' in every street of Karachi.

Solution: Withdraw all national forces from Karachi and raise a new security force comprised of indiginous Sindhis and settlers (Mohajirs especially). I'd love to see some sort of Sindh Rangers or Larkana Corps ensuring security in Karachi. Take away this excuse of 'outside force' from these Iltaf militia criminals.

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Re: Nawab Akbar Bugti Killed (MERGED)

Pakistani Army has large number of pashtun in its army. If you go Rawalpindi cantomenet, you can visibly see many pashtuns from all ranks in the army. Also in Islamabad, alot pf the pakistani pashtuns(not afghan refugees) are well off. I kno a couple of pashtuns who are very well off working in ptcl.

But killing bugti was not a good move. All of expats here seem to be supproting the move, but if you go to pakistan, even in punjab, most people are against and codemn bugti's death. The death, of bugti, if anything has lessened musharaf's popularity in all of pakistan including punjab.

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Re: Nawab Akbar Bugti Killed (MERGED)

Pakpatriot, we're going back to arguing in circles which will lead to nowhere. No, I don't think Punjabi masses are out to hurt anyone deliberately but due to their inaction that is exactly what is happening. Punjab is the most dominant province and its power is even greater then would be due to its population.

I again point you to this question: If people of Punjab were overwhelmingly against Musharraf, could he stay in power for more then 6 months?

And for your Bengali question, the situation could have been different if Pakistan army was more of a national army through the sheer fact that you have Bengali generals who may have reasoned with Yahya. But if not, it's really more of an institutional problem where due not only to the ethnic makeup of the army but also its actions, people have lost respect for it. And its involvement in politics is the main reason for this. And yes, we, as in all West Pakistanis who did not speak against Yahya's bad decision were complicit in events leading to the 1971 war.

So, why did it come to that? Because the army rulers abandoned the will of the people which was to elect Sheik Mujib-ur-Rehman simply because the army declared him to be a traitor and the army’s powerbase in West Pakistan went along with it, much like how some of them want to do the same over Bugti. You remove that support of the powerbase, the army becomes toothless.

Amorphous, that is exactly my point. It will make things 100% easier to handle if people from their own communities policed their own. Sindh and Baloch regmt as you know is majority Punjabi or Pashtun. And ISI and army are the main institutions that remain a hurdle in the path of equality in Pakistan since their control automatically tilts the situation further towards the largest ethnicity in their ranks. By their design they are not democratic institutions and their rule equals authoritarian rule of the ruling class.

As for the army being 90% Punjabi, I remember reading this in newspapers many times. If you have any other figure, please bring it forward.

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Re: Nawab Akbar Bugti Killed (Merged)

One baloch (KLIPPPPPPPPPER) family is worth Rs300/month to federal government and Musharaf can just add 200 to that, Bugti was definitely spending at least 10 times more than that.

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Re: Nawab Akbar Bugti Killed (Merged)

summary: Bugti was rightfully killed.

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Re: Nawab Akbar Bugti Killed (Merged)

** Precisely**. Let's hope for the best for Baluchistan now. Let's start getting some work done now the main obstacle has been removed, and actually integrate the Baluchis into the larger Pak economy!

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Re: Nawab Akbar Bugti Killed (Merged)

Frankly. We have spent a lot of money on our assembly halls, so that poiliticians can sit there and discuss issues of interest. If someone still wants to enter a cave…:hoonh:

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Re: Nawab Akbar Bugti Killed (MERGED)

I've also read that at least until sometime ago, PA had around 40 percent Pashtuns in its top brass. Musharraf said on television that 10 percent officers in army are Sindhis. But I'm not trying to base every argument on what I read/heard somewhere which may or may not be true. I'd encourage people to find out the exact ethnic make-up of not only PA in general, but army top brass in particular, and post the information here. I'll accept any figure if it comes from a reliable source.

Lets have a look at these names.

1- Messervy (Gora)
2- Gracey (Gora)
3- Ayub Khan (Hindko)
4- Musa Khan (Hazara, Quetta )
5- Yahya Khan (Persian)
6- Gul Hasan (Quetta, Pashtun)
7- Tikka Khan (?)
8- Zia (Punjabi Mohajir)
9- Aslam Beg (Mohajir?)
10- Asif Nawaz (Punjab)
11- Wahid Kakar (Pashtun, born in Quetta?)
12- Karamat (Punjab, Lahore?; didn't 'sack' NS)
13- Musharraf (Delhi, Mohajir; 'sacked' the elected PM who was Punjabi)

I think its quite representative. Sindhis and Baloch are missing, although ZA Bhutto enjoyed being a civilian martial law administrator for a while. He was hanged, and the person who hanged him was blown up by 'someone'. Its not as simple as Iltaf bhai would have us believe. Baloch are, unfortunately, no more than 3/4 million. But I'd love to see Larkana corps (with Sindhi majority) taking over Karachi. I'm sure nobody would question their moral authority.

The Best Guppies...........
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Re: Nawab Akbar Bugti Killed (MERGED)

I know for sure until last couple years most core commanders were not Punjabis

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Re: Nawab Akbar Bugti Killed (MERGED)

I wish none of them were.. so people wouldn't come here and abuse us for everything that goes wrong. and we should also make it clear that unlike Iltaf/Shujaat we're not going to support Musharraf politically.