Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
The conception of an Islamic republic the traditionalists and Iqballian
modernists had are very different.
But in neither case do you approach anything close to a Kemmalist secular republic.
Religion, or some conception of it, was integral to the state of Pakistan. A quote from a single speech does not change that.
Your #3 is a very vague statement without any traction. If Religion "or some conception contraption" was "integral", then care to explain why every Mullu worth some salt was against Pakistan?
How come Maw-doodi and Ajaad types of "jayyad alims" were up in arms against Jinnah and Jinnah's Pakistan.
Accept the fact that Pakistan was never meant to be Mullu-stan, otherwise all the Mullus would have fought for the country. These Mullus were namak-haram munafiqs back in 1940s and that's exactly what they are now.
And you insist that we turn Pakistan into Mullu-land. Strange twists of logic Pici Bhai. Where did you learn this art of debate? Some mad-house-russah?
FYI Pakistan was never meant for the religiosity aka Wahbism. It was simply a collection of border regions of British India who didn't want to be ruled by Delhi. Jinnah was worried that these border regions will be ignored by Congres$hites so he championed a separate capital for Punjab, Sindh, Sarhad, Balochistan, and Bengal. That's all.
Now burqa-posh Mullahtic revisionist of history are trying to put burqa around Maw-doodi and other Mullus just like that Sher-Dil ghazi in a big fat burqa.
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
I don't know who started the shooting first.
I don't think muslims are kidnaping and killing muslims in Iraq or afghanistan.
No they are oblivious.
er...... HELLO ever watch the News? So called Muslims killing other Muslims hundreds every day. Your kind of people.
Mullah Ghazi and Mullah Burqa started the shooting. Regardless holding such weapons is illegal. I think Islam teaches one to respect the laws of the country one is in. Did you not have that page in your Quran? No what a surprise. Bet the one on killing infidels was highlighted.
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs — War is on!
ROFLMAO @ fitna. When kanjar mullah’s accuse the whole nation, individuals who sky dive or DECIDE not to attend mosque for prayers, or anything trivial such as listening to radio, or viewing TV as KUFR you come out with this crap. Why dont you look in the mirror a little more often; this is what you will see: http://eaps.mit.edu/medusa/bernini_medusa.jpg
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
[quote]
Your #3 is a very vague statement without any traction. If Religion "or some conception contraption" was "integral", then care to explain why every Mullu worth some salt was against Pakistan?
[/quote]
Your equating of Mullah with an anti-secular stance is simply wrong. Iqbal was not secular. Nor was Jinnah. Where they traditionalists? No. Where the Mullahs the only ones thinking about Islam at the time? No.
That traditionalists were aligned with those who were against partition is not a new fact. But then, the raison d'etre for Pakistan was not any secular cause. That is a modernist revision. The historical evidence does not back it up. Jinnah's personally secular world view did not coincide with his invocation of Islam.
This should not be problematic, as religious people are expected to hold a secular worldview within secular administrations. What we have here is the
inverse case of that.
I think a huge problem here is that people just don't know what the word 'secular' means; or rely on seven-word definitions from dictionary.com. I'm not prepared to give a lecture on the history of secularism in Europe, nor why such a system was not what was envisioned by the founders of Pakistan, or their supporters.
Nor am I willing to tolerate any historical revisionism to that ends.
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
.......That traditionalists [read Mullahs] were aligned with those who were against partition is not a new fact. But then, the raison d'etre for Pakistan was not any secular cause. ..
Pici Bhai!
First I should give you credit for swiping Mullahtic @rse with the terms such as "traditionalists". My foot! A Mullah is a Mullah and why the heck you want to put Burga on them to make them "oh so naazuk burqa posh hasina" traditionalists.
Not only you are putting pro-Mullah spin on Pakistan's history, you are making them soft-to-touch beeni babies.
No one cares what the term "secularist" in this discussion is. No historical analysis proves that somehow the struggle of Pakistan was between Mullahtics and secularists.
Simply put Pakistan was an alternative non-commie arrangement for governing 5 provinces and Mullahtics were deathly against it.
If you get out of this burqa mentality and the associated niqab, you will hopefully see clearly that.
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
What is the context of "nationalism" from Hadees my dear lady?
Who was addressed as "national" in the hadees my dear lady?
Under what conditions that "nationalism" was "banned" by Messenger my dear lady?
As a I said, logic 101 is the key for any discussion. You seem to fail that basic prerequisite miserably.
Back in 700 AD there was no "nation" that would issue you ID cards, Passports, citizenship.
Mullu shenanigans were limited to one town or region and people pretty much lived off of the earth.
Fast forward to 2007, if you are petty shepherd in some remote corner of this earth, national ID doesn't matter to you. Just go tend to the goats.
However if you want to live in the contemporary world, association to a nation defines your existence. If you deny that, who would you pay your taxes to? Whoes ID card would you carry? Whose passport would you use while going from one "nation" to the "next"? Whose army would you serve? Which nation's legal code would you follow?
Choice is yours. Tend goats and not worry about contemporary world. Otherwise wake up and smell the coffee. Problem with Islamo-fascists is that their whole philosophy is geared towards goat herding.
BTW we do have regions in Pakistan that are ideal for goat herding. You are more than welcome to go live over there and this thread is way more than your intellectual abilities. So don't mess with Pakistani nationalists.
false arguments...................expected from you.
You haven't even read the links I posted.
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
false arguments...................expected from you.
You haven't even read the links I posted.
Hareem BB, I had those links already. So yes I read them and here is your mistake.
Modern nation is: Qaumiyyah (i.e. Pakistani-Quam, UNO-Aqwame-Muttahida etc)
Modern Asabiyyah is: Chuvinism in the name of Mohajirs, Punjabis, Sindhis, Balochis, or Pathans etc.
I hope you understand the difference now. If I:
am a member of Pakistani Qaum, it is "Great" if I work for peace, progress and prosperity of the people.
am a member of Mohajir asabiyyah who hates Sindhis then it is "terrible"
Hadees talks about #2, while you are forcing #1 into Hadees thus attributing something to Messenger that he never meant to say.
So you are committing two sins here. One is false attribution to the Messenger. And the second is the treason against your Quam (if you are a Pakistani) by denying its very existence.
That's why my dear lady I suggested you study the "context" of Hadees before spreading misinformation.
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
No.....loving your country is not haram....but giving preference to your country or your nationality over Islam is nationalism and it is haram.
And then we are surprised when the countries we reside in do not trust us.
This particular argument doesn't fly because the Kharjite scum decided to use the Masjid as a base of operations, whereas people of honor fight in the open. People of honor do not threaten sucide attacks.
I see nothing to be proud of anywhere in this event, from anyone. Pakistan only has cirminals claiming to defend it.
Rarely I agree with you. Actually I am surprised at your statement.
Islam comes before Pakistan.
There is no such thing as nationalism in Islam.
Bring back Khilafat.:D
Anyone who is ghadar of religon, he cant be sincere to his country, when time comes he will sell it.
I don't agree with you, based on your theory there is a possibility of muslims being gaddars in non muslim countries on the base of religion.
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
am a member of Pakistani Qaum, it is "Great" if I work for peace, progress and prosperity of the people.
Doing work for peace, progress and prosperity is great but
what if you support pakistani qaum or pakistani government even if they are wrong? This is called Nationalism(asabiyyah), Supporting a group, a race or a country even if they are wrong.
am a member of Mohajir asabiyyah who hates Sindhis then it is "terrible"
what if you hate a (right)religious muslim and support (wrong)non-religious muslim, isn't that Asabiyyah?
Hadees talks about #2, while you are forcing #1 into Hadees thus attributing something to Messenger that he never meant to say.
Hadith talks about Asabiyyah(nationalism) and I have explaned the meaning of nationalism and asabiyyah to you.
So you are committing two sins here. One is false attribution to the Messenger. And the second is the treason against your Quam (if you are a Pakistani) by denying its very existence.
I don't think so....I have given refs of Ahadith and they are crystal clear.
I'm not denying the existence of Pakistan but you are trying to divide pakistani qaum in religious people and non religious people. And this thread is proof of your* mazmoom azaim.*
That's why my dear lady I suggested you study the "context" of Hadees before spreading misinformation.
Thanks.
Please post the "context" of all those ahadith I posted to teach me. Thanks
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
And then we are surprised when the countries we reside in do not trust us.
^^ Exactly!! I want all such muslims who would give preference to their religion over the country they are living in, TO MOVE AWAY !! It is people like you who make all of our lives difficult!! Because of you and your jihadi friends we are always under the 'suspicious' category !! Please Please Please move to Saudi !! .... Before extreme right wing leaders take over the west and kick your butt out...
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
The GoP better press harder. Or the suicide attacks are soon coming to a big city near you. How long do people think this will contain to rural mounatin areas and only the poor defenders in uniform bear the brunt? If these retards are not nipped massively we're all in deep trouble...:(
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
yup, hence if I was Mushy time for Martial Law and maybe even US support if it starts threatening the nation. Much rather have a soldier with our governments support fighting with us than some loony high on propaganda hoping to get 72 Pamela Anderson's on battlefield.
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
yup, hence if I was Mushy time for Martial Law and maybe even US support if it starts threatening the nation. Much rather have a soldier with our governments support fighting with us than some loony high on propaganda hoping to get 72 Pamela Anderson's on battlefield.
That is hardly the solution. A fairly elected govt. will be more confident of handling the situation because it has people's mandate. A dictator on the other hand has is likely to compromise on major issues so as not to get into trouble and rock the boat too much.
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
And then we are surprised when the countries we reside in do not trust us.
Why shouldn't they trust us when Islam allows us to defend the countries we live in from attacks but we should question if we should trust countries who require us to break our religious bonds by making us place nationalism above our beliefs when it is the law of the secular states not to interfere in people's faith?
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
Dodged ALL again. What a chamcha
You said people like you(me) kill other muslims and women and children and I said no I don't kill anyone nor I support those who kill innocents nor I support those who killed hundreds of innocents including women and children in a mosque.
And what is chamcha? a personal attack? because you cannot take the truth so you start calling names?
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
you just said no Muslims is killing any other Muslim in Iraq or Afghanistan. By definition AQ and friends must be killing Kufr as they call them. Your support for AQ and friends.
