Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
What will soon happen is that mullahs will turn on themselves. It is their time honoured tradition to do so.
One mullah will say the beard should go down to pubic area, the other will come and say the first mullah is kaffir because the beard should be down to the foot and they will kill each other. All jihadi movements go through this routine where a more extremist mullah kills the less extremist one. Just look at the deaths of 250 in fighting between taliban and uzbek jihadis. No why weren't mullahs crying about those deaths?
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
Ok I'll try to find these ahadith in Arabic or from some other authentic source. inshaAllah
Very good. That should have been your step number 1 and not step #250.
When you quote stuff, try to understand it first as a modern good looking and beautiful person living in July of 2007 and not some haggard, faqeerni from December of 700.
The term asabiyyah has two different tones. One is clan, tribe etc as negative meaning. The second is "oriental" as positive meaning. Arabs were notoriously trribal back then, as they are now in Saudi Arabia.
When reading hadees, make sure you know who was told what, and what were the circumstances. This is what we call "context" in Logic 101.
If you ignore the context, the whole thing will blow up in your face, and you will start wondering what hit you.
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
What will soon happen is that mullahs will turn on themselves. It is their time honoured tradition to do so.
One mullah will say the beard should go down to pubic area, the other will come and say the first mullah is kaffir because the beard should be down to the foot and they will kill each other. All jihadi movements go through this routine where a more extremist mullah kills the less extremist one. Just look at the deaths of 250 in fighting between taliban and uzbek jihadis. No why weren't mullahs crying about those deaths?
cuz deep dpwn inside they knew it was one bunch of thugs killing another bunch of thugs and they could not bring themselves to condemn it.
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
How many big-bearded Mullus supported Pakistan? Haan? Every Mullu of some value was in cahoots with Gandhi. Why do you guys keeping on repeating the same Islamic-Mullahtic republic lie over and over?
Jinnah wouldn't touch these Mullus with a ten foot pole. Yet you guys keep on trying to make Jinnah look like as if he had 3 feet long beard.
No fanaticism or Mullusim was involved in making the modern day Pakistan, and yet you guys want to garland pakistan with Choharas (dried dates) from Saudi Arabia. Strange very strange!
If you still deny the truth then you are only deceiving none but yourself…I don’t have anything else to say until you present your refutation with refs from authentic sources.
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
What is clear and not open to interpretation is that any nationalism that is inherently hostile to religion in the public sphere (although the extent of which it should be in that sphere IS open to interpretation) is clearly hostile to Islam, and so academics aside Muslims are obligated to fight it.
So Mushy needs to make his intentions clear.
What public policy in Pakistan is openly hostile to religion? Pakistan has gone out of its way to be 'Islamic." The so called representatives of our religion have turned this issue on its head.. So now they are the ones that represent "Islam" while the rest of us are nationalists, against Islam? If anything, its the Mullahs and their militant followers who have turned this into an issue of State versus Relgion...
And Musharaf on his part has said many times over that he to and the rest of the country are ALL Muslims, so the question of choosing Islam over nationalism doesnt even arrise, because everyone has already choosen Islam.
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
This particular argument doesn't fly because the Kharjite scum decided to use the Masjid as a base of operations, whereas people of honor fight in the open. People of honor do not threaten sucide attacks.
I see nothing to be proud of anywhere in this event, from anyone. Pakistan only has cirminals claiming to defend it.
Well, I must say that of all the religous people, you are the most well spoken and fair minded.
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
Pakistan is an Islamic Republic in name only....
What's this supposed to mean?
On the one hand, people here are screaming at the top of their lungs that the writ of the state needs to be enforced through the use of military force. Kill all who disobey.
Yet here, this remark? I don't get it.
Are you for the constitution or not? Are you for law and order, or only when you aprove of it?
Yes, it is an Islamic state in name only...it's many things in name only.
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
I'm sorry Pakpatriot but I have no knowledge about this fiqh may be you can name some books written by scholars of this fiqh. Thank you.
Yes everything is open for interpretation in the light of Qur'an and Sunnah.
Hareem baji... You dont need to have any fiqhs here.. .The talibani version of Islam is open for all to see... If you refuse to open your eyes to the reality that exists everywhere today, then that not my fault...
And what im saying is that everything in the Quran and the Sunnah can be interpreted to mean anything... Its wide open for everyone..
Thats why some people find peace through Islam, and others like the Jihadi brothers find nothing but justification for murder of innocent people! Both groups read the same Quran and follow the same sunnah and yet the find two different interpretations? Hmmmmmm....
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
What's this supposed to mean?
On the one hand, people here are screaming at the top of their lungs that the writ of the state needs to be enforced through the use of military force. Kill all who disobey.
Yet here, this remark? I don't get it.
Are you for the constitution or not? Are you for law and order, or only when you aprove of it?
Yes, it is an Islamic state in name only...it's many things in name only.
It means that Pakistan was never meant as an Islamic State and was suppose to be a secular state.
It was only Zia who created this Islamic State concept and you can see how well that has worked.
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
How many big-bearded Mullus supported Pakistan? Haan? Every Mullu of some value was in cahoots with Gandhi. Why do you guys keeping on repeating the same Islamic-Mullahtic republic lie over and over?
This is getting old. The idea of a secular Pakistan is still born.
The conception of an Islamic republic the traditionalists and Iqballian
modernists had are very different. But in neither case do you approach anything close to a Kemmalist secular republic.
Religion, or some conception of it, was integral to the state of Pakistan. A quote from a single speech does not change that.
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
Oh, no! Not public policy...I meant those who would use (and abuse) this conflict to advocate a militantly secular polity...a minority, to be sure.
Those are a very small group... I would count myself amongst them except that getting a secular system in Pakistan is about as likely as aliens invading the planet.
Majority advocate a liberal system of Islam (which by most western standards is still pretty damn conservative). A liberal in Pakistan is religous but not to the point of taking up arms to impliment Sharia... Most still believe in Democracy and believe in keeping their relgion to themselves.
All I want is to simply enjoy a peaceful country where no one is going around dictating Islam to you... Is that to much to ask?
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
It means that Pakistan was never meant as an Islamic State and was suppose to be a secular state.
It was only Zia who created this Islamic State concept and you can see how well that has worked.
Zia did not brand Pakistan an Islamic republic.
Zia did not proclaim Islam to be the state religion.
Zia's islamization drive was probably the only good thing he did; and that's NOT to be conflated with his support for Jihadis which was an anti-Soviet move that had the blessings of the secular West. It was a support that even 'secular' parties continued for 'strategic depth'.
Jinnah never used the term 'secular' to describe Pakistan, although he clearly knew what it meant (and was in fact aware of what was going on in Turkey...but wisely, and humanely decided not to follow that model).
Pakistan was not meant to be a traditionalist theocracy, but a modern Islamic republic. This is where I end the discussion, as that precludes the possibility of a secular state. Let the academics and historians decide what is and is not an Islamic republic. Religion clearly was not meant to be seperate from the state.
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
actually tribalism and nationalism mean two completely different things. tribals are people related by blood. nationalism otoh is a modern concept and refers to promotion of the interest of all the citizens of a state irrespective of their religious beliefs. its idiotic to claim that islam is against nationalism because nation-states did not exist at the inception of islam. also the quran does not lay down a blue print for ideal government much less define what is the ideal relationship between different nation-states. the prophet also said that arabs have no superiority over non-arabs which means that prophet did not want arabs to go out and conquer non-arabs and convert them into arabs. its entirely logical to conclude from this last point that muslim nations can, for example, link together like e.u. countries have done and that citizens of this union can be considered a part of the ummah without the need for citizens to give up their national identity.
nationalism in the context of pak means promotion of a concept of a state which looks after the interest of all the citizens of pak be it religious or non-religious muslims as well as non-muslim pakistanis. pak can link with other muslim states without having to disband central government because no where in the quran does it say that muslim must live in a community with an all powerful ruler in the centre.
as far as jehadi opposition to nationalism goes, thats because jehadis want to implement their agenda by force and since national governments cannot survive if the only promote a narrow secterian agenda, jehadis want to do away with national governments and instead promote an alternative mode of government which will be totalitarian in nature with the aim of forcing people to live according to a warped version of islam. thankfully most muslims are wise to this paghulpun and hence the jehadi need to use force.
Re: Nationalist Pakistanis vs. Mullahs --- War is on!
What is the context of "nationalism" from Hadees my dear lady?
Who was addressed as "national" in the hadees my dear lady?
Under what conditions that "nationalism" was "banned" by Messenger my dear lady?
As a I said, logic 101 is the key for any discussion. You seem to fail that basic prerequisite miserably.
Back in 700 AD there was no "nation" that would issue you ID cards, Passports, citizenship.
Mullu shenanigans were limited to one town or region and people pretty much lived off of the earth.
Fast forward to 2007, if you are petty shepherd in some remote corner of this earth, national ID doesn't matter to you. Just go tend to the goats.
However if you want to live in the contemporary world, association to a nation defines your existence. If you deny that, who would you pay your taxes to? Whoes ID card would you carry? Whose passport would you use while going from one "nation" to the "next"? Whose army would you serve? Which nation's legal code would you follow?
Choice is yours. Tend goats and not worry about contemporary world. Otherwise wake up and smell the coffee. Problem with Islamo-fascists is that their whole philosophy is geared towards goat herding.