Nadeem F. Paracha spews more hatred for Islam

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Nadeem F. Paracha spews more hatred for Islam

And Mr. Reason, you just joined Gupistan? Only 6 posts till now. So you were called in to defend secularism or what?

You just joined GS to do this? Amazing indeed!

Timepass - March 2014
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How "suppressed" can one be if they are ruling a nation? Yes, women cannot wear scarfs in government places but that pales in comparison to ruling a nation.

I am the son of two immigrants from Pakistan. I joined primarily to learn what people from Pakistan really think. Pakistan is often on the news here in America, and I have had an interest in Pakistan's affairs due to my parents, so it was only a matter of time before I found a Pakistani internet site. While I am here I will express my views. I believe the voices of secularism, and more importantly, the voices of liberty need to be heard more in Pakistan. I can say some things here that people in Pakistan would be afraid to say.

Erudition, what would be your ideal society? You mentioned you want sharia in Pakistan. What provisions? In particular, what would your utopia say regarding freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of press, voting rights (if any), and freedom of religion? Islamism/sharia is like communism: it has been tried time and again in numerous nations and failed each time yet its followers maintain that it could lead to the promised utopia if only "true" Islamism/sharia or "true" communism could be implemented.

Timepass - March 2014
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Let me correct one thing, after the age of colonialism, shariah has never been applied in letter and spirit anywhere. Since you are so much interested in Pakistan, mention one instance when Pakistan was actually free to pursue its policies? Either it is a state controlled by foreign backed dictators or a so called democracy run by the army at the back. What shariah was ever imposed? None.

Does shariah not guarantee freedom of speech, liberty and equality? The real shariah in the times of the 4 rightly guided caliphs is enough to put any world system to shame. The penal code, family laws, inheritance laws, must be in accordance with Quran and Sunnah. There is only one shariah and its broad components are agreed upon by all schools of thought. The minor details can either be discussed or left to everyone’s will. If these Islamic laws are not implemented, and they are certainly not , than we are joking ourselves by calling ourselves Muslim and followers of Prophet Muhammad :saw: We are at best followers of worldly secular, imperfect laws (in Pakistan not even that, there is no law).

What makes secular laws better than Islamic laws? Say it openly, if you do not agree with Islamic laws that Islam is wrong or imperfect. What stops seculars from admitting that they believe that Islam does not offer solutions to our everyday problems. Seculars are so confident that they have managed to create a utopia in which everything is perfect. Just think of the sate of family affairs of the majority in the West, its pathetic and in shambles. How than can seculars speak with such confidence? They have nothing to offer!!

Unfortunately shariah has deliberately been demonized by media outlets and foreign powers such as we saw in Swat.

Promote secular ideals and demonize Islam, you have results like secular Turkey.

And yes you do need to know more about the condition of Islamists where they get banned many times, for having Islamic leaning. Such is the level of tolerance of secular degenerates - the Turkish army and establishment that makes every effort in making sure no Islamic symbols are displayed. You call that Islamic government where, even the will of the elected parliament was not respected when ban on hijab was lifted. They have no power and you know it well. I know one thing for sure, seculars in Turkey do not respect personal freedoms.

And yes, its hard to believe you just jumped into this conversation to discuss matters relating to Pakistan. Can be true but absolutely hard to believe.

I will chose to close this thread and end it here. I am confident that I made my point. There are media organizations like Dawn Media group and paid people who post on forums like these, that are promoting secularism day and night. They are somehow paving the way for a secular setup. Today it is sometimes very subtle, sometimes very direct, but they are at it, maybe at the behest of their foreign masters. It is only creating further divisions that Musharraf started in his tenure. He did one thing really well, he gave seculars a voice. No matter what, at the end of the day they will lose badly. Why will they lose?, because they have no moral standing!; no will to change the plight of poor in Pakistan and certainly no intention to do any good. What they are doing is simply creating mischief. In the end, good always prevails, for good by its nature prevails.

Bye and Eid Mubarak!

The Hi/Bye Thread
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Re: Nadeem F. Paracha spews more hatred for Islam

Dawn's gone down the drain anyways... Its too PPP oriented right now, plus failed editors like Paracha find refuge in this publication after getting fired from the news... Paracha is a hypocrite and a liar, if he wants to continue to make a fool out of himself, let him.

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Peace erudition,

Plz make it clear for me. Did Quaid E Azam wanted shariyah at all for Pakistan?

Peace.

-- Begum
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Good riddance!

Sher Mohammad Qasab dies in custody
The ‘butcher’ succumbs to his injuries
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/03-sher-mohammad-qasab-dies-in-custody-ss-01

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erudition:

[quote]
Was Zia the only "evil" Pakistan had? What about corruption and throwing the country in the whirlpool by the secular English speaking elite?! Extra judicial killings, sacking of judiciary, you name it, what did the "enlightened moderate" ruling class not do to this country??!! All this idiot has to discuss is what Zia and Islamism did to this country, which in fact has done more good than bad!

[/quote]

The khariji mindset Zia introduced in Pakistan proved to be far devastating for Pakistan than any of the evils you put above.
It has resulted in tens of thousands of deaths in Pakistan in the name of Islam.
So it is understandable if Paracha mentions it.

Besides, extrajudicial killing, sacking of judiciary, "you name it", have all been done by everyone. Zia's "high point" (or low point) was introduction of khariji mindset.
This is probably another reason Paracha mentions it.

The Hi/Bye Thread
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"Molvi style"_ No way
"Muhammad style"_Yes way.

And who will tell you what shariat is, if not Molvis?

And which "Muhammad shariat" will you implement? Wouldn't it be the one that YOU thinks is "Muhammad shariat" and not the one that THE OTHER GUY thinks is "Muhammad shariat"?

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These wierd divisions are state sponsored, Saudi sponsored and Iran sponsored.

Proclaim freedom from everyone and stick to Quran and Sunnah. There is no difference between the main matters anyway.

If you are a sincere Muslim, overthrow this present religious molvi class, take ove rmosques through reason , logic and understanding of deen. We need scholars who are not beggars asking for chanda in masjids. We need practical people like you to come forward and save the day, instead of doing away with Islam.

Islam does not need us, we need Islam for a better life, a life that makes a perfect society and that also worries about its Akhirah.

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Notice how he didn't bother to respond to you. Guess you hit a nerve with him.

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[QUOTE]
Let me correct one thing, after the age of colonialism, shariah has never been applied in letter and spirit anywhere.
[/QUOTE]

First, what is the "age of colonialism"? Are you one of those people who don't consider the Mughal, Ottoman, Persian, and Arab empires part of the "age of colonialism"? Second, what is the "correct" letter and spirit of sharia? Sharia/Islamism have been implemented in Iran (result: it took Iran from being as affluent as some European nations to being on par with Angola), Afghanistan (result: took Afghanistan back to the stone age), Sudan (failed there), Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia, Somalia, Nigeria, and Yemen. It has not delivered the promised utopia in any of these countries. It has not even made any of these countries developed and successful.

[QUOTE]
mention one instance when Pakistan was actually free to pursue its policies? Either it is a state controlled by foreign backed dictators or a so called democracy run by the army at the back. What shariah was ever imposed? None.
[/QUOTE]

That is a weak excuse. Foreign backing is of minimal importance, especially as it relates to domestic affairs. Zia implemented a lot of backwards religious laws as did Nawaz Sharif.

[QUOTE]
Does shariah not guarantee freedom of speech, liberty and equality?
[/QUOTE]

No and that is clear on its face. Read the laws of nations which have sharia.

[QUOTE]
The real shariah in the times of the 4 rightly guided caliphs is enough to put any world system to shame.
[/QUOTE]

What is the difference between the "real" sharia and the "fake" shariah in terms of their provisions?

[QUOTE]
The penal code, family laws, inheritance laws, must be in accordance with Quran and Sunnah. **There is only one shariah **and its broad components are agreed upon by all schools of thought.
[/QUOTE]

I agree. Sharia was developed and calcified over 1,000 years ago (by fusing Islamic doctrine, Arab customs, and Roman law). The sharia used by the Arab empire is pretty much the same sharia that the Ottomans used and is used today. The problem is what worked 1,000 years ago does not work in 2009. So we must look at the record of this system. With communism there was at least a degree of variation between the form of communism in a given country. You have conceded there is one shariah. What are the results?

[QUOTE]
What makes secular laws better than Islamic laws?
[/QUOTE]

Results. It is no coincidence every successful country in the world is secular. The reason for this is secular law can adapt to changing times; shariah has been frozen for over 1,000 years. Do you see anyone using the Roman Justinian code unchanged today? It worked great during its time and is a key foundation of the laws of many countries, especially Western and Middle Eastern countries. Yet everyone updated it. This is the best case scenario for shariah. Use some of its workable ideas, discard the outdated ideas.

[QUOTE]
Say it openly, if you do not agree with Islamic laws that Islam is wrong or imperfect. What stops seculars from admitting that they believe that Islam does not offer solutions to our everyday problems.
[/QUOTE]

Nothing is stopping me--I say it. Fortunately, I live in a free nation where I can say this. If I said this in sharia Saudi Arabia or Iran I would be imprisoned and probably killed.

[QUOTE]
Just think of the sate of family affairs of the majority in the West, its pathetic and in shambles.
[/QUOTE]

What problems do you refer to? Divorce? The Saudi Arabia divorce rate is on par with the American divorce rate (30% of first Saudi marriages end in divorce, 33% in the US).

The data shows family cohesion is overrated as a factor for national strength. If it was as important as advertised countries like Pakistan with strong families would be affluent and countries with high divorce rates and the like would be struggling.

[QUOTE]
Unfortunately shariah has deliberately been demonized by media outlets and foreign powers such as we saw in Swat.
[/QUOTE]

Sharia has been demonized by its failures and numerous anachronisms in its provisions, which is not surprising since it was calcified over 1,000 years ago. Was communism "demonized" or just a failure?

Regarding Turkey, the Islamists are in power there, although they are checked by the military. In the US we have leaders who openly invoke religion and remained secular so it is certainly possible to give religion space in society while remaining secular.

Turkey respects personal freedoms more than any Muslim country...

[QUOTE]
And who will tell you what shariat is, if not Molvis?

And which "Muhammad shariat" will you implement? Wouldn't it be the one that YOU thinks is "Muhammad shariat" and not the one that THE OTHER GUY thinks is "Muhammad shariat"?
[/QUOTE]

Excellent point. In the end you will need molvis to determine what "correct" shariah is and we have seen where that leads time and again. Just look next door in Iran and Afghanistan or within Pakistan in places like Swat and the Lal Masjid area.

Erudition, you dodged the basic question: who will decide what is "correct" shariah? Since it is a religious law inevitably religious leaders will have to be called upon to interpret it.

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Re: Nadeem F. Paracha spews more hatred for Islam

Nice discussion...prompted me to join you guys.

The PURPOSE of law is to provide justice.

No code of law can be perfect for all times because justice changes with circumstances and therefore, laws which uphold justice have to keep up with circumstances. I shall provide an example here - Intellectual Propety rights were a very minor issue before printing press; now with laser copiers, digital media and fast telecom, it is a very bug issue and so we need a very detailed advanced set of IP laws to provide justice.

The big difference between sharia and any 'secular' law seems to me is that the latter either has mechanisms built in to make such needed adjustments whereas the former is held set in stone and unable to adjust.

Two other poinst I'd like to make:

  • when there is no need for two religions to co-exisit, then the dominant one can prevail as law; but we have multiple religions in this global village that have to co-exist; that is why we need a law that is above all religions (eg the Constitution) to uphold justice

  • the muslim community should also learn to understand that there are differences betweem values, principles, religion and law. Your values can remain stable for much longer durations than principle. In turn religion that upholds certain principles will remain stable for a bit less than the principles themselves but longer than laws to implement.

This has been the law of nature and humanity. Evolution, Creation, Big Bang all follow this system of scaled magnitude. Entities that do not adopt perish - whether law, religion, principle or value.

Pakistan Day: JSQM leader demands freedom for Sindh and Balochistan
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Like Reason you are another new comer (only 2 posts), who has come to guard secularism. So whats you story? What got you interested in this thread?

Amazing I must say. :)

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Who will implement Shariah? Angels won't come to do it.

We have a lot of people who will do it when time comes. Just as people like you have energy and motivation to implement your dear secularism, there are many who are ready to implement shariah. with time, the number of these enlightened, literate and practical people is growing.

You have given very weak arguments about the implementation of shariah in 2009. Intellectual property infringement comes under stealing. In fact Islam presents the real solutions. First there is self policing, which you secular system does not have. Then you have the law that applies regarding stealing. Stealing software and intellectual property is stealing and is thus punishable as such. What's the issue? Quran and Sunnah are perfect and they provide solutions for all times to come. Human nature and ways have not changed over 1400 years. People still eat drink and fulfill their desires.

According to secular way of thinking, humans have also not evolved from monkeys to humans to baboons. They are still the same. Than, why is so hard for you to understand. If you don't want to understand or have sharia allergy than you remain happy with what you are. Dedicate your life for it and leave the result to Allah. InshaAllah HIS system will prevail, whether you liek it or not. If not today, tomorrow it will.

Divorce is not the only thing! In addition, by just emphasizing the penal codes, like Saudis and Taliban do, a major portion of shariah that is about social justice and welfare is ignored. SO what can you conclude, no country has shariah, even if those kings, mullahs or dictators claim to have it.

As I said earlier, and you dodged away from it, can you bring an example of the so called Islamic system today prevalent anywhere that comes close to the times of Khulafa ar Rashideen. Surely not.

Maybe the Scandanavian model comes closer to the Islamic welfare state model.

You measure success by what? Islamic standards of success have spiritual as well as material wellbeing. Turkey which claimed as being prosperous, does not even come close to being a good model. Maybe Malaysia would be a better example.

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Yes you are right. His post and your post got on my sanity nerve. :) I only answer sane people.

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What's your definition of 'sane'? Crying about how Muslims are allegedly persecuted in the West yet turn a blind eye to the fanaticism against Christians in Pakistan?

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You seem to downplay those differences. But people refuse to consider others even MUSLIMS based on them. And KILL others due to those differences.
So the question remains as to which shariat will rule. Yours, mine, his, hers?
Remember, everyone considers their shariat the only true shariat.

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We all know when certain extreme Sunnis have shariah they resort to killing Shi'as. Just look at Afghanistan under the Taliban for the practice.

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Tsk Tsk. You did not send condolences to the OP who was so outraged by criticism of his hero.

The Hi/Bye Thread
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Re: Nadeem F. Paracha spews more hatred for Islam

Reason:

[quote]
t took Iran from being as affluent as some European nations to being on par with Angola),
[/quote]

You fail to consider the amount of sanctions Zionist Americans have placed on Iranian people.

[quote]
Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Malaysia, Somalia, Nigeria, and Yemen. It has not delivered the promised utopia in any of these countries.
[/quote]

Saudis are happy with the amount of money they are making. All other countries were poor anyway, shariat or not.

I don't buy that argument of yours.