My questions to Ahmadi ......

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sholay: *
Here is something I posted in another thread, but this time I would be grateful for any comments and explanations from the Ahmedy guppies:

The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement states:

Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad declared again and again that the Holy Prophet Muhammad is the Khatam an-nabiyyin (or Khatam al-anbiya), and that this means that no prophet whatsoever can come after him, neither old nor new.

He gave this as an argument to prove that the prophet Jesus cannot return in person.

He used the words “unconditionally” and “absolutely” about the ending of prophethood with the Holy Prophet Muhammad.

Extracts from statements of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
RK = Ruhani Khaza’in, the 23 volume collection of books of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
MI = Majuma Ishtiharat, collection of published announcements of Hazrat Mirza.
Rabwah editions.

  1. “The Holy Prophet had repeatedly said that no prophet would come after him, and the hadith ‘There is no prophet after me’ was so well-known that no one had any doubt about its authenticity. And the Holy Quran, every word of which is binding, in its verse ‘he is the Messenger of Allah and the Khatam an-nabiyyin’, confirmed that prophethood has in fact ended with our Holy Prophet. Then how could it be possible that any prophet should come after the Holy Prophet Muhammad, according to the real meaning of prophethood? This would have destroyed the entire fabric of Islam.”
    — Kitab al-Barriyya, p. 184, footnote. RK vol. 13, pp. 217-218.

  2. “In brief, God by naming the Holy Prophet as Khatam an-nabiyyin in the Quran, and the Holy Prophet himself by saying ‘There is no prophet after me’ in Hadith, had settled the matter that no prophet can come after the Holy Prophet, in terms of the real meaning of prophethood.”
    — Kitab al-Barriyya, p. 185, footnote. RK, vol. 13, p. 218.

  3. “I firmly believe that our Holy Prophet Muhammad is the Khatam al-anbiya, and after him no prophet shall come for this Muslim people, neither new nor old.”
    — Nishan Asmani, p. 28. RK, vol. 4, p. 30.

  4. “The Holy Quran does not permit the coming of any messenger (rasul) after the Khatam an-nabiyyin, whether a new one or an old one.”
    — Izala Auham, p. 761. RK, vol. 3, p. 511.

  5. “The actual fact, to which I testify with the highest testimony, is that our Holy Prophet is the Khatam al-anbiya, and after him no prophet will come, neither any old one nor any new one.”
    — Anjam Atham, p. 27, footnote. RK, vol. 11, p. 27.

  6. “It does not befit God that He should send a prophet after the Khatam an-nabiyyin, or that He should re-start the system of prophethood after having terminated it.”
    — Ainah Kamalat Islam, p. 377. RK, vol. 5, p. 377.

  7. “The Holy Quran, in the verses, ‘This day I have perfected for you your religion’, and ‘He is the Messenger of Allah and the Khatam an-nabiyyin’, has ended prophethood with the Holy Prophet Muhammad. And it has said in plain words that the Holy Prophet is Khatam al-anbiya.”
    — Tuhfa Golarwiya, p. 83. RK, vol. 17, p. 174.

  8. “Allah is the Being Who ... made Adam and sent messengers and scriptures, and last of all sent Muhammad, may peace and the blessings of Allah be upon him, who is the Khatam al-anbiya and the best of messengers.”
    — Haqiqat al-Wahy, p. 141. RK, vol. 22, p. 145.

  9. In his book Izala Auham, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has in one place quoted and then translated into Urdu the Khatam an-nabiyyin verse of the Quran (ch. 33, v. 40). He has translated the term Khatam an-nabiyyin as meaning:

the one to end the prophets (Urdu: “khatam karnai wala hai nabiyon ka”).

After this, he then comments:

“This verse also clearly argues that, after our Holy Prophet Muhammad, no messenger shall come into the world. Therefore, it is proved perfectly manifestly that the Messiah, son of Mary, cannot return to this world.”
— Izala Auham, p. 614. RK, vol. 3, p. 431.

  1. “The fact that our Holy Prophet is the Khatam al-anbiya also requires the death of Jesus because if another prophet comes after him, he cannot remain the Khatam al-anbiya, nor can the type of revelation given to prophets be considered as terminated. The return of Jesus is not mentioned anywhere in the Holy Quran, but the ending of prophethood is mentioned perfectly clearly. To make a distinction between the coming of an old prophet * and a new prophet is mischievous. Neither the Hadith nor the Quran make such a distinction, and the negation contained in the hadith report ‘There is no prophet after me’ is general. What audacity, boldness and insolence it is to depart from the clear meaning of the Quran, in pursuit of one's feeble conjectures, and believe in the coming of a prophet after the Khatam al-anbiya!”
    — Ayyam as-Sulh, p. 146. RK, vol. 14, p. 392-393.

  2. “ ‘Muhammad ... is the Messenger of Allah and the Khatam an-nabiyyin.’ Do you not know that the Merciful Lord has declared our Holy Prophet to be the Khatam al-anbiya unconditionally, and our Holy Prophet has explained this in his words: ‘There is no prophet after me’, which is a clear explanation for the seekers of truth.”
    — Hamamat al-Bushra, p. 81-82. RK, vol. 7, p. 200.

  3. “By saying ‘There is no prophet after me’, the Holy Prophet Muhammad closed the door absolutely to any new prophet or the return of any old prophet.”
    — Ayyam as-Sulh, p. 152. RK, vol. 14, p. 400.

The above statements raise a very very big predicament.

You claim one thing and the movement claims another!

What stance do the likes of Ahmedjee, Adnan Ahmed, Bismah and NYAhmadee take?
[/QUOTE]

I will leave this to Ahmedjee...*

42

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *
Lailaha illAllaho Mohammed-ur-rasoolAllah <--- Whoever follows this will believe in the finality of the prophethood...There are no ifs, ands or buts about it. The Holy prophet (SAW) was the seal of the prophets, and any person saying that there is another prophet after him is a kafir.
[/QUOTE]

Ahmedis do believe in Lailaha illAllaho Mohammed-ur-rasoolAllah , and YES THERE IS A BUT, they define the seal of the prophets differently.
Prophet Mushammad was the last LAW BEARING PROPHET.

43

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed: *

Ahmedis do believe in Lailaha illAllaho Mohammed-ur-rasoolAllah , and YES THERE IS A BUT, they define the seal of the prophets differently.
Prophet Mushammad was the last LAW BEARING PROPHET.
[/QUOTE]

And what was MGAQ bearing?

44

Thap,

An interesting question. :~) Just so everyone knows, Ahmadi or Ahmadiyyat is not a derogatory term but Hazrat Mirza Sahib (as) gave that name himself to his jama'at or followers. Contrary to common belief, the name is not after his own name (which happens to have Ahmad in it) but from the Holy Prophet (saw) name Ahmad. There is a theology behind that which he has explained in his literature; I am not an expert on it, so I will not go into details. Though I can find out & get back to anyone if they are interested in knowing.

Sholay,

First let me clearly state that Hazrat Mirza Sahib (as) never denied the greatest title of Khatam-un-Nabiyeen, that Allah bestowed on our beloved Holy Prophet, the one & only, Hazrat Muhammad-o-Mustafa (saw). In fact, when the Christians, Hindus & others Non-Muslims objected that why the Messiah had to come among the followers of Islam & not in their religion, he gave the argument of Khatam-e-Nabuwat, explaining to them that Allah has declared AnHazoor (saw) Khatam-un-nabiyeen & therefore no prophet can come with a new law, nor anyone can come as a reformer prophet outside the Ummah of AnHazoor (saw) & the followers of AnHazoor (saw) are the only deserving one left on this earth to be bestowed with the office of prophethood. His argument was that Islam completed the religious evolution & abrogated all previous laws & that God wants to establish only one religion in the world & that is Islam.

Secondly, those who want to know what Mirza Sahib (as) had to say about Khatam-e-Nabuwat in regards to his own claim of prophet hood should read his book, Aik Ghulti ka Izala, which goes on & on about Khatam-e-Nabuwat & how Hazrat Sahib had been given prophethood from Allah.

In short the Ahmadiyya understanding of word Khatam in the term Khatam-e-Nabuwat is that Khatam means Seal (Urdu term: Mohar), which is not only to "seal close" but also to attest, to recognize and to authorize, to testify and to affirm. AnHazoor (saw) is khatam-un-nabeyeen because he testified & recognized all the prophets of the past that came with the message of Allah to all the different parts of the world and he is also the only seal for the future prophets. i.e: no one can come outside his law (in Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist faiths). Ahmadies also translate the word Khatam as "Ring" (urdu term: Ungothee) which in the very true sense make AnHazoor (saw) the greatest, most magnificent and the pride of all the prophets or Allah!

Note: You can check these two translations (Seal and Ring) in any Arabic language dictionary.

In more layman terms, when a cricket fan says: "Imran khan par bowling khatam hay" or "Imran khan tou akhir ki bowling karata hay", he doesn't mean that Imran was the last bowler ever & there won't be any bowlers after him. It only means that he has mastered in the art of bowling so much that in turn has become the greatest of all those who bowled before him & those who will come in the future. But his will be a man made claim .... when Allah says in regards to AnHazoor (saw) that he is Khatam-un-Nabiyeen, Allah's words are beyond doubt true in every essence & this unique, blessed title can never be acclaimed by anyone else till eternity.

*As I stated before, its very easy to quote a few lines in any religion and take them out of the context & make one's own conclusion. *

It is true that the Lahore Ahmadi jama'at does not consider Hazrat Mirza Sahib (as) a prophet but only as Mujadid-e-Azam & they have every right to conclude what ever they so wish. I can only state that I disagree with them.

Allah knows best!

45

Ahmedjee

Thanks for your response and clarifying your position.

I would however be grateful if you can shed some light into the emergence of the Lahoriya sect and why they decided to take the approach they do, concerning Mirza and prophethood? I would like to hear this from a non Lahoriya 'Ahmedy's' standpoint.

Finally, what branch do you follow and what fundamental difference is their between you and the Lahoriya branch concerning Mirza Ghulam!

46

Do you have scholars? Your scholars should have a munazzra...That would shed some light...If you don't believe in a munazzra, then I guess your faith is no more better than Hindus or Buddhists...Anyways, I know this much...Between three entities, one is lying...Who can it be? Allah (SWT), Mohammed (SAW) or Mirza sahib...Gee...It's so hard for me to figure out who's trustworthy and who's not...

In short, my prophethood is due to my being Muhammad and Ahmad and not by myself: I have been vouchsafed this rank because of my complete annihilation in the Holy Prophet, and thus the sense of the expression KHAATAMAN NABIYYEEN (Seal of the prophets) is not at all interfered with. But the advent of an independent prophet like Jesus Christ will certainly be at variance with it.

How confusing...Christ will REappear...Not appear...His advent was done...

I swear by God Who has raised me and Whose curse falls upon him who fabricates lies about Him, that He has sent me as the Promised Messiah .

What Messiah? With what message? With what miracles? With what? With Ijaad? No Mujaddid will be called and titled a messiah and have ABSOLUTELY NO contact with Allah (SWT) as this guy claims...

God has called me by the names of Prophet and Messenger.

The last message was received loud and clear and it stated that this IS the last message and that Mohammed (SAW) is the last messenger and anyone who comes after this claiming to have contact with Allah (SWT) and claiming to be His messenger is fake, false and probably faulty...That's why I am against using AIM...Ahmaddiya Instant Messenger...

If anybody takes an exception to my being called a NABI (prophet) and a RASUL (Messenger) in my revelations, he is but a fool because my prophethood and messengership do not infringe the divine seal in any way.

Then call me the biggest fool of all cause I disregard, distrust and dis all this man had to say...

If you reject me, then you reject the traditions of the Holy Prophet which say that the Promised Mahdi will bear a strong physical and spiritual resemblance to his Great Master so much so that he will even be known by the names by which the Holy Prophet was known i.e., he will be called Muhammad and Ahmad and will be a member of his household.

The 'dead' Mahdi...Muslims know that the Mahdi has to be alive to be a Mahdi...Oh...Excuse me...Does Mirza sahib say anything about reappearing or something again as Mahdi? Let me know if he did...Oh, and one more thing...Allah will give him 'knowledge' from Himself...Which does not mean 'wahis'...

*Lo! How did Moses express his jealousy and could not help shedding tears when he found the Holy Prophet getting ahead of him on the night of the Ascension. *

He was not crying because he was jealous, he was crying because HIS Ummah (The Jews) for which he worked so hard for will be cast out of the favors of Allah (SWT) and this new Nabi's (SAW) Ummah will be admitted...If they believe in him and his message and don't follow false prophets...And do the Ahmadees believe that Musa (AS) was 'Jealous' of the Holy Prophet (SAW) and that too a magnificent and magnanimous prophet like Musa (AS)? The same Musa (AS) who requested Allah (SWT) to take away his prophethood and make him instead a follower of Mohammed (SAW)? Hmmm...I really don't think so...

I read the whole thing Ahmedjee, and I have to say...How confusing...Do you have any idea how simple and down-to-earth Islam is? Do you know how few words the Holy Prophet used to explain his prophethood? Didn't need a thousand books to explain how great he was...May Allah grant all Ahmedees wisdom to understand, and if they die upon their beliefs, then Absharubinnar...Mirza sahib's death itself was a removal of a misunderstanding...

47

Thap and Sholay, if YOU believe in the Last Prophet (SAW) and all he had to say as beneficial and truthful, then know this. He (SAW) said ," Allah protect me from knowledge that benefits me not". All the books and literature you can read in the universe about this sect will benefit you none...Go read a good book instead...At least it will be amusing...

48

Lajawab

I think you are grossly misunderstanding me.

I do not need to read any 'Book' except the Qur'aan in order to benefit myself. And surely not any from the Ahmedy sect.

I am merely cross examining Ahmedys for my own purpose.

HJust for the record, I do not accept Mirza as a prophet, as the messiah, the mehdi or even a reformer as a matter of fact. Most Ahmedys on this forum know my position and if you'd had taken time out and checked my posts, you would of gotten the picture as well!

In the meantime I don't think there is any harm in asking Ahmedys to clarify their positions with regards to their branches.

One claims Mirza as a prophet and the other claims him as a non prophet.

Interesting to say the least don't you think?

49

Ever heard of the term 'Gunnah bay lazzat', Sholay?...Interesting but useless...It's better to read about Christianity or Judaism so at least you get reward for reverting someone to the straight path...Those that Allah (SWT) sets crooked upon a straight path, not even a nabi can set them straight...

WOA

50

adnan you can’t have a khalifh with with an islamic state so this claim makes no sense.

You cannot have a ruler without state first because if you don’t have a state then what is your ruler ruling :confused:

51

"Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed:

Ahmedis have a Kalifah, and that is why we are so organized. "

Yeah, but still you people can't even decide if mirza was prophet, missiah, mehdi or agent of the evil imperial british empire. :D So much for being "organized."

Marzaiis pray like muslims, say salam like muslims, say kalima like muslims, claim they are muslims yet they do stuff which always turns out to be against muslims and islam just like their mirza shaab... and what he did for the evil imperial british government of his time. Before you loose it, like anyone else would when hearing the truth, just read history books. Well, you don't have to go far, read his(mirza's) own books!

52

Sholay,

I belong to the group that considers him a prophet, and thus cannot help but to be bias on the beliefs of the Lahore Jama'at. If you want their version, look at their website or find yourself a Lahori Ahmadi. :)

For considering Mirza Sahib (as) only a mujadid the Lahore jama'at gives one argument, which you stated above. Their second argument that follows after the first is that whenever Hazrat Sahib (as) used the word Nabi for himself, he meant it literally or in other words, the one who proclaims to know the future through God & make prophecies.

The origin of the Lahori Jama'at has much more to do with their grievance on the choice of the Khalifa by the majority of Ahmadis, than to do with these doctrinal questions & is almost a repetition of early Islam history on the choice of the successor but bloodless version. After Hazrat Mirza Sahib (as) passed away, Khilafat was established on the sunnah of AnHazoor (saw). The first Khalifa, Hazrat Maulana Noor-ud-din Sahib (r) was chosen unanimously & the group which later went their way did his ba'iat & followed his instructions. During his time, a group of scholars proposed that a committee (Anjuman) should be established with the authority to veto the direction of Khalifa. He strongly rejected the idea on the grounds that Khalifa is not just a figure head but as long as the majority of the jama'at is righteous is bound to be rightly guided from Allah. They were not satisfied. Later on when he passed away in 1914, the majority of the jama'at chose Hazrat Mirza Bashir-ud-din Mahmood (r) to be the next Khalifa. The same group denied his bait & moved to Lahore & established an Anjuman. That's the best non-bias version I could come up with.

Lajawab,

I am not surprised that you find it confusing; and I point to the fact that you have already made a conclution & thus your reading is to find objections & not for learning. I can answer your questions one by one, as I have tried to do with many others before but that will lead to more questions & soon the discussion will be going in all different directions.

Anyway, to understand the premises of claim of Mirza Sahib (as), you have to go over the predefined first. If AnHazoor (saw) is the last prophet, as you understand it, then what are all the Hadiths about the second coming of Hazrat Isa (as)? If you do believe in those Hadiths & for the sake of argument Hazrat Isa (as) actually does descend from heaven, then would he in turn become the last prophet? And what would he be bearing? A Law? Or no Law? If a law then would it be additions to Quran? If not, then I ask you like you asked me, what good is he then? And what is his purpose of coming back to earth?

If you do not believe in those Hadiths, then maybe you can come up with a solution as to who is suppose to revive Islam to its original essence as was established by AnHazoor (saw) and who is suppose to unite the Muslims & clear up their differences that are growing by the day?

53

reply to Spock!

just visitng gupshup to see whats going on... seems like time is standing still... sometime i think its waste to time, but i think there are many other silent readers who benefit from this.. keep it up AhmadJee... well for now Spock has raised a question, let me reply him and answer many other question, before i leave.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
I never knew that... Do you know how these two names emerged?
[/QUOTE]

the simple answer to this is, its the same way the followers of Jesus (Isa) AS were labelled by the opponents (i.e Jews). They were called
EESAEE cause they believed in EESA, and
NASAREE after His(as) place of birth Nasara, (Nazareth).

Followers of Hadhrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the Promised Mesiah and Mahdi, were also called the same by the opponents. i.e
MIRZA’EE after His name Mirza, and
QADIANI after his place of birth.

To give further insight, allow me to quote a hadith:

[quote]
Abdullah bin Amarra relates that the Holy Prophet (SA) said *‘Surely things will happen to my people as happened earlier to Israelites, they will resemble each other like one shoe in a pair resembles the other** to the extent that if anyone among the Israelites has openly committed adultery to his mother there will be some who will do this in my Ummah as well, verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sects but my people will be divided into 73 sects, all of them will be in the fire except one.' The companions asked. 'Who are they O Messenger of Allah,' Holy Prophet (pbuh) said. `They are those who will be like me and my companions.’ (Tirmidhi - Kitabul Eeman)*
[/quote]

  • There are many aspects of these prophetic words. One being that there will come a time (if it has not come yet) when Muslims will be like Jews. For jews after accepting Mosses as prophet of God, reverted back to their old world of sin and crimes, divided themselves into groups and sub groups. Allah, the Merciful sent prophets after prophets to revive them but the hebrew nation keep deteoriating despite of all these devine measures. Some 1400 years after Moses, Allah raised a Messiah(Jesus) from among themselves to revive that morally sick and dying nation. Few accepted Him, majority rejected him and labelled him as Heritic and fake prophet, persecuted him and his followers and taged them as Christians and Nazaretians just because they(the Jews) were awating for Elija to descend from Sky and revive them. (and so they are still awating)

  • Similar is the case of todays Muslims, they are following the same trend. After the demise of Holy Prophet(saw), the Muslims started detiorating, devided themselves with time into sects and sub-sects, Allah swt sent reformers after reformer at the head of every century to revive them but no use, cause it is already destined in the words i quoted above. Likewise after some 1400 years later Alah raised a Messiah(Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) from among themselves, to revive his chosen ummah of Mohammad(sa). some accepted him, Alas! majority without even looking for the truth, followed the path of Jews.... they believed what their parents, their madardas and their governments decisions, without Asking Allah- the only living God. Persecuting Him and His followers day and out, calling them with names. Just because they are awaiting like Jews for someone to descend from skies.

Indeed those are true words, only if one fear Allah.

Jazakallah.

54

"Thirty liars (will appear before the Day of Judgement) and each one of them will claim to be a Prophet of Allah." (Tirmizi)

Can any Ahmedy post the following pages please:

(Roohany Kazaen, Vol. 9, P. 31; Anwar ul Islam, P. 30)

55

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Rangeela Guppy: *
"Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed:

Ahmedis have a Kalifah, and that is why we are so organized. "

Yeah, but still you people can't even decide if mirza was prophet, missiah, mehdi or agent of the evil imperial british empire. :D So much for being "organized."

Marzaiis pray like muslims, say salam like muslims, say kalima like muslims, claim they are muslims yet they do stuff which always turns out to be against muslims and islam just like their mirza shaab... and what he did for the evil imperial british government of his time. Before you loose it, like anyone else would when hearing the truth, just read history books. Well, you don't have to go far, read his(mirza's) own books!
[/QUOTE]

Whats there to lose? You obviously dont know much of anything. Read Ahmedjee's post and you will understand. I have read "his" books and I have found them to be enlightening, truly the work of a man insired by god. His works make you understand what Islam truly is. Unlike the millions of you fatwa declaring fanatics who are about as organized as a bag of marbles:)
BTW. Sunnis also pray, say salam, and do everything like real Muslims, but they are not good muslims, not the real jamaat, like we Ahmedi:)
Now dont you lose it...:)

56

We have an ummah, the ummah is our state, the only real ummah left, it has a head, it a khalifah. Also, it sad but the sunnis occupy the prime real estate these days, but as our numbers grow, we will crowd them out:)

57

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *
Ever heard of the term 'Gunnah bay lazzat', Sholay?...Interesting but useless...It's better to read about Christianity or Judaism so at least you get reward for reverting someone to the straight path...Those that Allah (SWT) sets crooked upon a straight path, not even a nabi can set them straight...

WOA
[/QUOTE]

Your a perfect example of why we needed an imam Mehdi.
To bring you back to the right path, the path of Islam.
May god show you the right path.
Inshalah, I will pray for you.:)

58

Adnan Ahmed

If Mirza was truly inspired by God, and you have read his 'inspirational' writings then you shouldn't have any objections in posting some of his writings.

Can you therefore please post the following from:

(Roohany Kazaen, Vol. 9, P. 31; Anwar ul Islam, P. 30)

Furthermore, do you honestly believe that you will ever 'crowd out' the mainstream sunni branch.

If so, then I must add that you are truly living in denial. As a matter of fact believing in false prophets is also living in denial.

Sunnis make up over 85% of the total Muslim population, leaving the remainder 15% for the Shi'ites etc etc.

Unfortunately for you, Ahmedys are not classed as Muslims by some, however, for arguments sake, even if Ahmedys are accepted as Muslims, then you most probably fall into the 1 or 2% bracket, and thats with a very conservative guess.

Simple Maths dictates that if you've grown 1% over 100 years, then another 1300 years will add another 13% to your tally, totalling 14% or so over the next 1400 years. That's only if the other sects give you breathing space!

So the moral of the story is to stick to reality and try not to respond in the heat of the moment.

Peace.

59

Regarding the name of Ahmadi and Ahmadiyyat for the Community, I'd just like to quote this:

"A point I wish to make quite clear at the outset is that the names Ahmadi, Ahmadiyyat, do not point to a new religion. Ahmadis are Muslims and their religion is Islam. The slightest deviation from it they consider wrong and degrading. True, Ahmadi's have adopted the names Ahmadiyyat, Ahmadiyya Movement, Ahmadiyya Jama'at and so on. But the adoption of a name is not the adoption of a new religion. The name Ahmadiyyat is the name of a reinterpretation or a restatement of the Religion of the Holy Quran. It is a restatement presented under divine guidance by the Founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement. The names Ahmadi, Ahmadiyyat etc; are meant only to distinguish Ahmadi Muslims from other Muslims, Ahmadi interpretation from the other interpretations od Islam. The best name we could adopt was the name Ahmadi or Ahmadiyyat. This name has a significance for our time. Ours is the time appointed for the propagation, * all over the world *, of the Universal Message of the Holy Prophet (on whom be peace). We are Muslims heart and soul. We hold the beliefs a true Muslim must hold, an deny the beliefs a true Muslim must deny."

Taken from * Invitation to Ahmadiyyat, by Hadhrat Mirza Bashir-ud-din Mahmud Ahmad. *

60

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *

Lajawab,

I am not surprised that you find it confusing; and I point to the fact that you have already made a conclution & thus your reading is to find objections & not for learning. I can answer your questions one by one, as I have tried to do with many others before but that will lead to more questions & soon the discussion will be going in all different directions.

Anyway, to understand the premises of claim of Mirza Sahib (as), you have to go over the predefined first. If AnHazoor (saw) is the last prophet, as you understand it, then what are all the Hadiths about the second coming of Hazrat Isa (as)? If you do believe in those Hadiths & for the sake of argument Hazrat Isa (as) actually does descend from heaven, then would he in turn become the last prophet? And what would he be bearing? A Law? Or no Law? If a law then would it be additions to Quran? If not, then I ask you like you asked me, what good is he then? And what is his purpose of coming back to earth?

If you do not believe in those Hadiths, then maybe you can come up with a solution as to who is suppose to revive Islam to its original essence as was established by AnHazoor (saw) and who is suppose to unite the Muslims & clear up their differences that are growing by the day?
[/QUOTE]

Ahmedjee, The word advent means coming or arrival...Hazrat Isa's (AS) advent has happened and he has been lifted till as such time as needed...It won't be his second advent either as he will REappear...His advent was before Huzoor (SAW), his REappearance will be after Huzoor (SAW)...As for your question as to what he will be carrying, he will be carrying the truth and verification for Christians so that they know what the true religion is and nothing else...Remember the hadith about him breaking the cross and going after the Dajjal who will be the leader of the Jews? How else would the Christians become one with Muslims and go after them? It all falls so nicely into place Ahmedjee, but Mirza sahib just messed things up...As for your question about someone about that someone uniting the Muslims together, well, it will be the Mahdi...The LIVING mahdi, mind you, who WILL be here when hazrat Isa (AS) will be here...Read the ahadith about the description of the Mahdi or if you wish I can send you a link...

P.S. Ever heard of this guy called Gohar Shahi? This idiot has people thinking that HE is the Mahdi...Are people so ignorant that they can't read and verify ahadith about the Mahdi? He is SO well described, even down to the way he would dress...