My questions to Ahmadi ......

MUSLIMS.

Ahmadi Muslims …

I would put the disclaimer first so that I am not mistaken to be rude/sarcaystic as I am mostly.

This post is due to sheer lack of knowledge of the ahmadi sect and should not be taken as rhetoric argument.

NOW the Q…

  1. IS ur kalma and ours exactly the same.
  2. Do u all believe in the 5 pillers of islam …HAj ,Roza ,Zakat…etc.
  3. What are ur prayer rules , and offering style. Is it the same as ours.
    4.Are alcahol, pigs meat etc haram .

the 5th q is a littel political but I would still ask it.

5 . Do u take urself as a Muslim when ppl like bhutto(to appease mullas) …and other guppies here say that ahmadi are non muslims or do u get that infurriated that u start hatting islam .

  1. IS ur kalma and ours exactly the same.
    Yes., I hope by ours you mean 'Sunni Muslims'

  2. Do u all believe in the 5 pillers of islam ...HAj ,Roza ,Zakat....etc.
    Yes.

  3. What are ur prayer rules , and offering style. Is it the same as ours.
    *There is Fiqah-e-Ahmadiyya which is closest to Fiqah-e-Hanafi. I have seen many Sunni Muslims pray and the style of offering is exactly the same which in turn is taken from Hadiths. *

4.Are alcahol, pigs meat etc haram .
Yes.

5 . Do u take urself as a Muslim when ppl like bhutto(to appease mullas) ...and other guppies here say that ahmadi are non muslims or do u get that infurriated that u start hatting islam .

Love for all, hatred for None

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *

  1. IS ur kalma and ours exactly the same.
    Yes., I hope by ours you mean 'Sunni Muslims'

  2. Do u all believe in the 5 pillers of islam ...HAj ,Roza ,Zakat....etc.
    Yes.

  3. What are ur prayer rules , and offering style. Is it the same as ours.
    *There is Fiqah-e-Ahmadiyya which is closest to Fiqah-e-Hanafi. I have seen many Sunni Muslims pray and the style of offering is exactly the same which in turn is taken from Hadiths. *

4.Are alcahol, pigs meat etc haram .
Yes.

5 . Do u take urself as a Muslim when ppl like bhutto(to appease mullas) ...and other guppies here say that ahmadi are non muslims or do u get that infurriated that u start hatting islam .

Love for all, hatred for None
[/QUOTE]

Thank u ahmad jee thanks for the info except Q1`U dint reply clearly ...rest of the questions ...I got the answer" yes I meant sunni.

I think the only difference is in the interpretation in the finality of the prophethood.

Re: My questions to Ahmadi ......

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Poodenay_Ki_Chutney: *
MUSLIMS.

Ahmadi Muslims .......

[/QUOTE]

u started off wrong....
how come u mix up the ahmadis and the muslims????

ahmad bhai has answered all of the questions, just wanted to add to the last question that Allah is the ONLY judge of who is Muslim and not Muslim. Bhutto and others can say what they like because they are not God. And we only have to answer to Allah on the day of judgement and not any of them.

Well said Bismah .... here i m agree wid u :)

:k: :k:

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Bismah: *
ahmad bhai has answered all of the questions, just wanted to add to the last question that Allah is the ONLY judge of who is Muslim and not Muslim. Bhutto and others can say what they like because they are not God. And we only have to answer to Allah on the day of judgement and not any of them.
[/QUOTE]

Truely Allah is the final judge but he sent messengers and reveletions..
If muslims dont think Ahmadis are muslims Ahmadis also think muslims who dont believe in Mirza Qadiani as non-muslims!!

I dont believe in Mirza sahib claims which to me are rediculous - so where I stand in eyes of Ahmadis?

PKC,

[quote]
Thank u ahmad jee thanks for the info except Q1`U dint reply clearly ...rest of the questions ...I got the answer" yes I meant sunni.
[/quote]

There are no additions or subtrations to the following:

[thumb=A]shahada.JPG[/thumb]

Degas,

If you are looking for an official fatwa, then there is none. What you will find is the claim that those who consider Ahmadis as kafirs/Non-Muslims in turn become one themselves. This is from the Hadiths of Sahih Muslim which states that if a person calls another a Kafir, for sure one of them is.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
*
Degas,

If you are looking for an official fatwa, then there is none. What you will find is the claim that those who consider Ahmadis as kafirs/Non-Muslims in turn become one themselves. This is from the Hadiths of Sahih Muslim which states that if a person calls another a Kafir, for sure one of them is.
[/QUOTE]

.. we know that vast majority of muslims in Pakistan consider them non-muslims so almost all in Pakistan become non-muslims in ur eyes ? rendering Pakistan as a non-muslim country..

You still didnt replied to my question if a person who claims to be muslim doesnt believe Mirza as prophet of God but believes Muhammad (PBUH) as the last prophet of God and is a practicing muslim regarding all other obligations Islam calls for is a muslim or not? I did read this somewhere long back that Mirza made it a compulsion for people to accept his claims or they are out of fold of Islam..

Degas,

If you are trying to get a decree from me that I consider you a Non-Muslim, so you can prove that Ahmadis aren't any different then you are wasting your time.

I believe I answered it quoting the Hadiths quiet clearly. And to those whom AnHazoor (saw) called Kafir, how can I say any different? Regardless of how many in number they maybe.

As someone else mentioned, in the end Allah is the judge.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
**PKC
*,

There are no additions or subtrations to the following:

[thumb=A]shahada.JPG[/thumb]

[/QUOTE]

.... the only difference between Islam and previous religions was that relevence of Islam through Quran was to be go on till end of the world thats why it was promised to be saved .. and no other guidence from God in reveletion was to come.. and no messenger of God would come .. if we consider Muhammad (PBUH) as not the last messenger and so many prophets or messengers would come after him..wuz the relevance of Quran this day.. this means Quran is not sufficient to modern world needs which is not the case at all to muslims..

The Qadiani view of their leadership with Muslims was well summarised by their second caliph, Mirza Mahmud Ahmad:

"Our worship has been separated from the non-Ahmadis, we are prohibited from giving our daughters (in marriage) to them and we have been stopped from offering prayers for their dead. What is then left that we can do together? There are two kinds of ties: one religious and the other mundane. The greatest expression of the religious bond is in common worship and in matters mundane, these are the ties of family and marriage. But then both are forbidden (haram) to us. If you say that we are permitted to take their daughters (in marriage), then I would reply that we are allowed to marry the daughters of christians as well. If you say why do we salaam to non-Ahmadis, then the reply to this is that the Prophet (Muhammad) has said salaam to the Jews.. thus the Promised Messiah (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad) has separated us in all possible ways from the others; and there is no kind of relationship which is particular to Muslims and we are not forbidden from (entering) into that." (Kalimatul Fasl by Mirza Basheer Ahmad in Review of Religions, vol.14, No. 3-4, p.159)

still waiting from some Ahmadi guppies about the above message about muslims who dont believe in Mirza's claims from only son of Mirza - second imam of Ahmadis...
Why Ahmadis accuse others of labelling them non-muslims as they themselves treat other muslims like this?

ahmadis stand in the same category as the followers of musailma kazaab, and other false prophets....

only difference is that the muslims in the time when these ahmadis appeared were so careless of their religion that they did not bother to wipe them out from their roots....

yes armughal, just like the muslims of today are even more careless of their religion that they do not bother to wipe out the bunch of hate mongering mullahs from their roots.

Degas,

The reason I didn't reply was because you never asked any questions. You only quoted something and made your own comments & conclusion based on that. And as I don't think my response will make any difference in your opinion, I thought it better conserve my energy for better use else where. Now that you insist I will write something up.

(1) First, I do not have the book you quoted nor have I read it. It's a good practice to give give the URL from which you copy-pasted this, just to see if they have the original text. Though even if I take your word on its accuracy of translation, even then I don't know why are you so upset about it? This book, if written by Mirza Mahmood Ahmad (ra), is probably of mid-19th century & there is a history of persecution of Ahmadis by the Non-Ahmadis as well as the Fatwas of Kafur aganist them, from the very day of the claim of Hazrat Ahmad (as) which was in the later part of 18th century. Certainly not something Bhutto invented.

(2) If you don't know, let me tell you that the restriction of Ahmadis to not follow a Non-Ahmadi in prayers was announced around 1900, close to 17-18 years after Mirza Sahib (as) claimed to be the prophet of Allah. For those first 17-18 years Ahmadis had no restriction on praying, marrying etc. with Non-Ahmadi Muslims. But during this time they were persecuted, thrown out of Masajid, beaten up if seen in a Non-Ahmadi mosque, the women who converted were deserted by their husbands according to the Fatwas issued by the Mulvi Sahiban of those times saying that their conversion dissolved their marriages ... and the list goes on. Therefore, in light of the disorder that such activities created & persecution that was persistant, Ahmadis were asked not to go to Non-Ahmadi Mosques or pray behind Non-Ahmadi Muslims.

(3) So, first Ahmadis are beaten up for saying prayers with Non-Ahmadis & thrown out of mosques & the husbands abandoned their wives ... and when Ahmadis refused to do so themselves then they are accused of not praying along side other Muslims?! Where is the justice in that?

(4) Still this decree that you quoted is not followed word to word as you have assumed. Usually its understood that those who do not have anything against Ahmadis or in other words do not consider Ahmadis as Non-Muslims/Kafirs (going back to the Hadiths I mentioned), praying behind them or marrying them is not forbidden, just not something recomended. Usually its required to take permission from the jama'at.

About 10 years ago, when my brother along with a two other Ahmadis came to the city I reside in today, they went to the local mosque regularly for Jummah prayers for close to 6-7 months. Then there was a shift in the administration of that mosque & the new Maluvi Sahib started calling names to Mirza Sahib in every other Khutba. And so, they stoppeg going there because those who reject the Imam appointed by Allah & call him abusive names, how can we consider him our Imam?

(5) You are mistaken if you think that all Muslims consider Ahmadis as Non-Muslims. I have many close friends who have no prejudice against my faith or Mirza Sahib.

(6) Lastly, all sects of all religions (Islam being one of them) marry among themselves. There are exceptions but on a general rule of thumb marrying outside the sect, praying with them etc. creates complications & thus are discouraged, Ahmadis are not doing something out of the ordinary.

(7) There is a difference in calling/declaring someone a Non-Muslim and not marrying with them or saying prayers behind them. Most sects in all different religions around the world have this practice even though they do not call others Non-Muslims, or Non-Jews, Non-Hindus etc.

(8) Hazrat Mirza Bashir-ud-din Mahmood Ahmad (ra) is not the only son of Mirza Sahib (as), check your sources again.

Now, after my explanation if you are you still going to quote some more books and try to prove that what I believe & have explained above is really not my faith, but its actually what you think/assume/conclude, then please understand that religion can be twisted whichever way one pleases. You can quote one verse from the Bible & make Jesus (as) son of God (Naozubillah) & quote another one to make him a man! One verse of Quran to ligitamize the killing of Non-Muslims and the other that forbids it. So, taking just some quotes from the books and making them out of the context objections is something very common. Anyway, if you chose to go that route, I sincerely hope that you will not insist on me wasting my time continue to answer your questions.

Ahmadjee Bhaijan, why go thru so much effort to educate morons who refuse to come out of a Mullah’s arse? I like the way it is, let them issue fatwas and waste their time while Ahmadis work on getting prestigious awards in sciences and arts.

I have not known of any such a large group of ignorant (armughul type) in one place. Have you? I guess it has to be the lack of education and a very low literacy rate.

ahmadje,
..thnx for ur lengthy explanation.. but there is distinct difference between some decree fatwa or its actual practice.. ur mentioning of persecution of ahmadis is true but it doesnt constitute faith or religion and is political act.. if some muslims showed acts of repression it doesnt mean one entirely changes faith and attitute towards all muslims .. look at the words ** prohibited** and ** haram** which clearly shows that they refer to very strict regulations and interpretations of rules..
I dont know if u have seen this decree or not but I know from my ahmadi friends that they follow it to its roots.. as u often show ur disappointment as ahmadis not considered as another sect of Islam -look how u treat the muslims as u will see them as jews and christians and not muslims at all..

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Degas: *
ahmadje,
..thnx for ur lengthy explanation.. but there is distinct difference between some decree fatwa or its actual practice.. ur mentioning of persecution of ahmadis is true but it doesnt constitute faith or religion and is political act.. if some muslims showed acts of repression it doesnt mean one entirely changes faith and attitute towards all muslims .. look at the words *
prohibited** and ** haram** which clearly shows that they refer to very strict regulations and interpretations of rules..
I dont know if u have seen this decree or not but I know from my ahmadi friends that they follow it to its roots.. as u often show ur disappointment as ahmadis not considered as another sect of Islam -look how u treat the muslims as u will see them as jews and christians and not muslims at all..
[/QUOTE]

As an ahmadi, I want to clarify one thing:

NO ONE IS GIVEN A RIGHT TO DECLARE SOMEONE ELSE A KAAFIR IF THE OTHER PERSON CALLS HIMSELF MUSLIM.

**According to Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (as)
The Review of Religions, November 1993

My principle is that one should be sympathetic towards everybody. If someone sees that the house of a Hindu is on fire and he does not endeavour to extinguish it then I tell you the truth, I do not deem him to be one of my followers. I say it on oath and truthfully tell you that I have no enmity against anyone. I try my best to reform people and if anyone abuses me I do not complain to him. My complaint is made only to God and not to any worldly court. Under all circumstances it is our duty to be sympathetic towards everybody.

(Siraj-i-Munir, p. 28) **

We don't call our muslim brothers as 'Kaafir'. Instead we call them 'Non_Ahmadi Muslims'. AND WE LOVE THEM. That is why, our slogan is LOVE FOR ALL HATRED FOR NONE.

We don't harm anyone, instead we preach everyone of what we believe in. And this is all because we want them to benefit from the true Islam that is taught to us by Holy Prophet Muhammad(PBUH).

WE DON'T HATE ANYONE. WE LOVE EVERYONE. Because we all are creation of GOD and we love our GOD and we love HIS creation.