Zakia sahib.. here noone is saying about Ahmadis whether they r peaceful or not.. we r just asking what Ahmadis themselves think about muslims who doesnt believe in Mirza's claims.. if u look at Mirza's writings they were certailnly very credible and were at time best answers to the problems of that time and had respect from most muslims.but after sometime his infinite claims and total rejection of his early thinking led him to a path which to muslims was clearly against Prophet Muhammad's teachings.. negation of completion of Quran.. comparing himself and his so called miracles with other prophets of God?
Check my quote of Mirza Mahmud Ahmad above.. how Ahmadis traet other muslims..
I'm not an Ahmadi Muslim and plead ignorance to thier version of beliefs (nor do I have any desire to deride them for what they believe in), however, there are number of things I have noticed of their community in the UK and in Pakistan:
- they are more welfare oriented then the general muslim population, especially in Pakistan. I've known educated, city folk give up their free time at weekends to help out poor people in villages. Non-Ahmadi's seem rather less inclined towards these social activities. why ?
- they seem to be more educated
- they seem to have a greater sense of unity and help each other out
- they build respected community focussed institutions (hospitals etc)
Perhaps if the rest of us didn't spend so much time endlessly arguing (often to the point of extreme violence) about who is a muslim and who is a non-muslim (as if God delegated this responsibility to us) then maybe we'd learn some positive aspects from people around us (both muslim and non-muslim).
RedMango
People who are in minority are always more organized and are in more conntact with each other.. u will see shia much more organized than sunnis as they are in minority in Pak.. welfare works are great and christians do the most welfare works in the world.. its for conversion into their faith.. minority always work harder than majority for their existance..
This post is not to say anything good or bad about Ahmadis.. its how Ahmadis perceive muslims who dont believe in claims of Mirza Qadiani.. I believe they themselves dont believewithout believing Mirza as messenger of God.. one remains a muslim... no qadiani had refuted avove decree of their second Imam about insulting muslims who r not Ahmadis!
Thank you all for ur inputs. All ur posts were quite an interesting read some were prompted by anger/hate some were tottally sincere and informative .
My answer to all of u.
Red mango >>> yup degas ,has replied correctly all minority communities do stand together eg ismailies,shias,etc...
Degas>>>My fifth question had different sides to it thanks for pointing it out. I have a small sketch about this please follow it.
Persecution>>> feeds anger>>>>hatred >>>prejuidices >>>> if religion is included it becomes a leathel concoction . With ppl pointing fingers at both sides . I cant say in particular whether the people Persecuting ahmadis started on the wrong foot or whether ahmadis declearing non ahmadis as kaffirs. At the end of teh day we are the same ppl ,same society, same emotions.
Zakiaahmed. A very noble ideaology.
NYAhmadi aap ke saath aise baatein zaib nahi detein.....dont get angry because u loose all the wit and humour of ur posts. Look at the other ahmadis who replied in a very dignified fashion....haan and one last thing I at least know one sunni who has taken an award in science and arts. :)
Ahmadjeevery interesting info. well put.
Bismahwell said ! I would just like to add....Not only who was following the rite religion ...he will also judge us for our deeds in this world ....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Degas: *
RedMango
People who are in minority are always more organized and are in more conntact with each other.. u will see shia much more organized than sunnis as they are in minority in Pak.. welfare works are great and christians do the most welfare works in the world.. its for conversion into their faith.. minority always work harder than majority for their existance..
This post is not to say anything good or bad about Ahmadis.. its how Ahmadis perceive muslims who dont believe in claims of Mirza Qadiani.. I believe they themselves dont believewithout believing Mirza as messenger of God.. one remains a muslim... no qadiani had refuted avove decree of their second Imam about insulting muslims who r not Ahmadis!
[/QUOTE]
You have probably noticed that many Sunnis have been ranting and raving over the creation of a Kalifah. They seem to believe that most of their problems will be solved if there were one.
Well, I have news for them all. Ahmedis have a Kalifah, and that is why we are so organized. WE HAVE ORGANIZATION, WHILE SUNNIS ARE ALL SCATTERED, THROWING BOMBS ON EACH OTHER.
So in a sense, were a mile ahead of you Sunnis.
No offence to Sunnis inteded:)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Degas: *
Zakia sahib.. here noone is saying about Ahmadis whether they r peaceful or not.. we r just asking what Ahmadis themselves think about muslims who doesnt believe in Mirza's claims.. if u look at Mirza's writings they were certailnly very credible and were at time best answers to the problems of that time and had respect from most muslims.but after sometime his infinite claims and total rejection of his early thinking led him to a path which to muslims was clearly against Prophet Muhammad's teachings.. negation of completion of Quran.. comparing himself and his so called miracles with other prophets of God?
Check my quote of Mirza Mahmud Ahmad above.. how Ahmadis traet other muslims..
[/QUOTE]
Actually, Ahmedis dont call anyone Kafir, meaning they do consider Sunnis Muslims. Its only the Sunnis and some Shias, that seem to have some kind of mandate from god, which allows them to decide who is or isn't a true Muslim.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed: *
Actually, Ahmedis dont call anyone Kafir, meaning they do consider Sunnis Muslims. Its only the Sunnis and some Shias, that seem to have some kind of mandate from god, which allows them to decide who is or isn't a true Muslim.
[/QUOTE]
.. thnx for ur noble views.. dont take all sunnis or shias in one category.. I know many Ahmadis who are more violent and biased than any u can imagine.. check my quote above of ur second Imam and tell how he thought about other muslims.. who gave him the mandate to declare other muslims as jews and christians!
.. check validity of Mirza Mahmuds this claim too!
According to Mirza Mahmud Ahmad, it is no longer sufficient for the existing Muslims to believe in the Holy Prophet Muhammad and all the prophets before him. Now they must also declare that they believe in the prophet Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as well. Otherwise they cannot remain Muslims but become just like those Jews and Christians who believed in the previous prophets but failed to accept the Holy Prophet Muhammad.
Mirza Mahmud Ahmad, while acknowledging his beliefs, writes:
"(3) the belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his [Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's] bai`at formally, wherever they may be, are Kafirs and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiah. That these beliefs have my full concurrence, I readily admit."
(The Truth about the Split, Rabwah, 1965, pp. 55-56. This book was first published in 1924, and is the translation of his Urdu book A'inah-i Sadaqat
Probably a silly question but is it an Ahmadis preference is to be labelled Ahmadi? Early Muslims were labelled Mohamedians by the predominantly Christian west, Muslim’s at the time thought it derogatory to suggest they that were affiliated with and followed only a man. It was not a name they rejoiced in.
Ahmedjee/Adnan, there is one question I would like to ask you, even though I think you answered that already. You see, I cant dare ask this question to my ahmadi friends, as I fear I can hurt their feelings or they may take it the wrong way (their friendship is dear to me), so this is why I am asking you...
Is your Qalimah exactly the same as ours? I mean exactly??? Are there any differences in the wording etc or not?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
Ahmedjee/Adnan, there is one question I would like to ask you, even though I think you answered that already. You see, I cant dare ask this question to my ahmadi friends, as I fear I can hurt their feelings or they may take it the wrong way (their friendship is dear to me), so this is why I am asking you...
Is your Qalimah exactly the same as ours? I mean exactly??? Are there any differences in the wording etc or not?
[/QUOTE]
It is as far as I know, I have actually prayed in Sunni mosques and found no difference.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Thap: *
Probably a silly question but is it an Ahmadis preference is to be labelled Ahmadi? Early Muslims were labelled Mohamedians by the predominantly Christian west, Muslim’s at the time thought it derogatory to suggest they that were affiliated with and followed only a man. It was not a name they rejoiced in.
[/QUOTE]
That is the official name of the Jammat. The deragatory terms I believe are "Qadiani" and "Mirzai"...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Degas: *
.. thnx for ur noble views.. dont take all sunnis or shias in one category.. I know many Ahmadis who are more violent and biased than any u can imagine.. check my quote above of ur second Imam and tell how he thought about other muslims.. who gave him the mandate to declare other muslims as jews and christians!
.. check validity of Mirza Mahmuds this claim too!
According to Mirza Mahmud Ahmad, it is no longer sufficient for the existing Muslims to believe in the Holy Prophet Muhammad and all the prophets before him. Now they must also declare that they believe in the prophet Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as well. Otherwise they cannot remain Muslims but become just like those Jews and Christians who believed in the previous prophets but failed to accept the Holy Prophet Muhammad.
Mirza Mahmud Ahmad, while acknowledging his beliefs, writes:
"(3) the belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his [Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad's] bai`at formally, wherever they may be, are Kafirs and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiah. That these beliefs have my full concurrence, I readily admit."
(The Truth about the Split, Rabwah, 1965, pp. 55-56. This book was first published in 1924, and is the translation of his Urdu book A'inah-i Sadaqat
[/QUOTE]
Well, obviously those that dont believe in the Imam mehdi will be outside the pale of Islam. But does that necesarilly mean they are not Muslim? No... Your just misguided. And to be misguided is to be beyond the pale of Islam, but not that your Kafir. It just means your not "good" Muslims, or your "not the best that you could be."
And yes, I know many Ahmedis who are very strict about their faith.
But never known anyone to be fanatical about it. Although there have been times that Ahmedis find themselves having to defend their beliefs in the eyes of Sunnis. Many of my Sunni friends are low enough to insult me, at which time, I find myself raising my voice. I assure you, just because an Ahmedi defends his faith, does not mean he is an extremist.
Also, I dont mean to imply that ALL Sunnis go around labeling who is or isnt a Muslim. I mean, on this site alone we have many exampe of such people, and other such as Mo-best who fit the category perfectly. I have absolutely nothing against Sunnis in general. My Dada was a sunni, my brother inlaw is a Sunni. But you have to admit, its only the Sunni Muslims going around labeling everyone.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed: *
That is the official name of the Jammat. The deragatory terms I believe are "Qadiani" and "Mirzai"...
[/QUOTE]
I never knew that... Do you know how these two names emerged?
So far I read the whole thread but none of the Ahmedi guppies answered what Degas asked and its really a simple question. As being a muslim everyone knows our last prophet was Muhammad (SAW) and it has been stated in the Quran too that Muhammad (SAW) is the last messenger. So why our Ahmedi guppies can't just answer a simple question yes or no? Thank You.
If a person who claims to be muslim doesnt believe Mirza as prophet of God but believes Muhammad (PBUH) as the last prophet of God and is a practicing muslim regarding all other obligations Islam calls for is a muslim or not?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Question: *
So far I read the whole thread but none of the Ahmedi guppies answered what Degas asked and its really a simple question. As being a muslim everyone knows our last prophet was Muhammad (SAW) and it has been stated in the Quran too that Muhammad (SAW) is the last messenger. So why our Ahmedi guppies can't just answer a simple question yes or no? Thank You.
If a person who claims to be muslim doesnt believe Mirza as prophet of God but believes Muhammad (PBUH) as the last prophet of God and is a practicing muslim regarding all other obligations Islam calls for is a muslim or not?
[/QUOTE]
True, finality of the Prophets in Mohammad (PBUH) is also essential if you are a Muslim, there can be no exceptions to that... The Prophet(pbuh) warned his friends about false prophets appearing after his death, and his friends (namely Abu Bakr) dealt with them severly.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
I never knew that... Do you know how these two names emerged?
[/QUOTE]
There is a lot of propaganda that has evolved over the years. Mosty its from the Mullahs I would assume.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Question: *
So far I read the whole thread but none of the Ahmedi guppies answered what Degas asked and its really a simple question. As being a muslim everyone knows our last prophet was Muhammad (SAW) and it has been stated in the Quran too that Muhammad (SAW) is the last messenger. So why our Ahmedi guppies can't just answer a simple question yes or no? Thank You.
If a person who claims to be muslim doesnt believe Mirza as prophet of God but believes Muhammad (PBUH) as the last prophet of God and is a practicing muslim regarding all other obligations Islam calls for is a muslim or not?
[/QUOTE]
Actually, your confused, Ahmedis do believe in the seal of the prophet, but they translate it differently.
And YES, non Ahmedis are also Muslim. Just misguided ones.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
True, finality of the Prophets in Mohammad (PBUH) is also essential if you are a Muslim, there can be no exceptions to that... The Prophet(pbuh) warned his friends about false prophets appearing after his death, and his friends (namely Abu Bakr) dealt with them severly.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but how do you tell who is or isnt a prophet?
Im interesting in knowing your views, even though we would never agree.:)
Here is something I posted in another thread, but this time I would be grateful for any comments and explanations from the Ahmedy guppies:
The Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement states:
Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad declared again and again that the Holy Prophet Muhammad is the Khatam an-nabiyyin (or Khatam al-anbiya), and that this means that no prophet whatsoever can come after him, neither old nor new.
He gave this as an argument to prove that the prophet Jesus cannot return in person.
He used the words “unconditionally” and “absolutely” about the ending of prophethood with the Holy Prophet Muhammad.
Extracts from statements of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
RK = Ruhani Khaza’in, the 23 volume collection of books of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad
MI = Majuma Ishtiharat, collection of published announcements of Hazrat Mirza.
Rabwah editions.
“The Holy Prophet had repeatedly said that no prophet would come after him, and the hadith ‘There is no prophet after me’ was so well-known that no one had any doubt about its authenticity. And the Holy Quran, every word of which is binding, in its verse ‘he is the Messenger of Allah and the Khatam an-nabiyyin’, confirmed that prophethood has in fact ended with our Holy Prophet. Then how could it be possible that any prophet should come after the Holy Prophet Muhammad, according to the real meaning of prophethood? This would have destroyed the entire fabric of Islam.”
— Kitab al-Barriyya, p. 184, footnote. RK vol. 13, pp. 217-218.“In brief, God by naming the Holy Prophet as Khatam an-nabiyyin in the Quran, and the Holy Prophet himself by saying ‘There is no prophet after me’ in Hadith, had settled the matter that no prophet can come after the Holy Prophet, in terms of the real meaning of prophethood.”
— Kitab al-Barriyya, p. 185, footnote. RK, vol. 13, p. 218.“I firmly believe that our Holy Prophet Muhammad is the Khatam al-anbiya, and after him no prophet shall come for this Muslim people, neither new nor old.”
— Nishan Asmani, p. 28. RK, vol. 4, p. 30.“The Holy Quran does not permit the coming of any messenger (rasul) after the Khatam an-nabiyyin, whether a new one or an old one.”
— Izala Auham, p. 761. RK, vol. 3, p. 511.“The actual fact, to which I testify with the highest testimony, is that our Holy Prophet is the Khatam al-anbiya, and after him no prophet will come, neither any old one nor any new one.”
— Anjam Atham, p. 27, footnote. RK, vol. 11, p. 27.“It does not befit God that He should send a prophet after the Khatam an-nabiyyin, or that He should re-start the system of prophethood after having terminated it.”
— Ainah Kamalat Islam, p. 377. RK, vol. 5, p. 377.“The Holy Quran, in the verses, ‘This day I have perfected for you your religion’, and ‘He is the Messenger of Allah and the Khatam an-nabiyyin’, has ended prophethood with the Holy Prophet Muhammad. And it has said in plain words that the Holy Prophet is Khatam al-anbiya.”
— Tuhfa Golarwiya, p. 83. RK, vol. 17, p. 174.“Allah is the Being Who ... made Adam and sent messengers and scriptures, and last of all sent Muhammad, may peace and the blessings of Allah be upon him, who is the Khatam al-anbiya and the best of messengers.”
— Haqiqat al-Wahy, p. 141. RK, vol. 22, p. 145.In his book Izala Auham, Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has in one place quoted and then translated into Urdu the Khatam an-nabiyyin verse of the Quran (ch. 33, v. 40). He has translated the term Khatam an-nabiyyin as meaning:
the one to end the prophets (Urdu: “khatam karnai wala hai nabiyon ka”).
After this, he then comments:
“This verse also clearly argues that, after our Holy Prophet Muhammad, no messenger shall come into the world. Therefore, it is proved perfectly manifestly that the Messiah, son of Mary, cannot return to this world.”
— Izala Auham, p. 614. RK, vol. 3, p. 431.
“The fact that our Holy Prophet is the Khatam al-anbiya also requires the death of Jesus because if another prophet comes after him, he cannot remain the Khatam al-anbiya, nor can the type of revelation given to prophets be considered as terminated. The return of Jesus is not mentioned anywhere in the Holy Quran, but the ending of prophethood is mentioned perfectly clearly. To make a distinction between the coming of an old prophet * and a new prophet is mischievous. Neither the Hadith nor the Quran make such a distinction, and the negation contained in the hadith report ‘There is no prophet after me’ is general. What audacity, boldness and insolence it is to depart from the clear meaning of the Quran, in pursuit of one's feeble conjectures, and believe in the coming of a prophet after the Khatam al-anbiya!”
— Ayyam as-Sulh, p. 146. RK, vol. 14, p. 392-393.“ ‘Muhammad ... is the Messenger of Allah and the Khatam an-nabiyyin.’ Do you not know that the Merciful Lord has declared our Holy Prophet to be the Khatam al-anbiya unconditionally, and our Holy Prophet has explained this in his words: ‘There is no prophet after me’, which is a clear explanation for the seekers of truth.”
— Hamamat al-Bushra, p. 81-82. RK, vol. 7, p. 200.“By saying ‘There is no prophet after me’, the Holy Prophet Muhammad closed the door absolutely to any new prophet or the return of any old prophet.”
— Ayyam as-Sulh, p. 152. RK, vol. 14, p. 400.
The above statements raise a very very big predicament.
You claim one thing and the movement claims another!
What stance do the likes of Ahmedjee, Adnan Ahmed, Bismah and NYAhmadee take?*
Lailaha illAllaho Mohammed-ur-rasoolAllah <--- Whoever follows this will believe in the finality of the prophethood...There are no ifs, ands or buts about it. The Holy prophet (SAW) was the seal of the prophets, and any person saying that there is another prophet after him is a kafir.