Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
musharraf has delivered real results and thus gets grace marks.
Like:
Sacking a chief justice who was not toeing the line.
Attacking GEO and than pretending he didn't know anything about it.
Blood on the streets of Karachi by his ghunday's.
Showing his inability to deal with the Lal Masjid issue.
These are just the current issues in which he has shown his overwhelming incompetency and ruthlessness in case of Karachi murders.
Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
I am sure it more than 10,000 people were killed.
Aalsi, many thousands were also disappeared by the PPP govt as well - never to be seen again.
Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
Like:
Sacking a chief justice who was not toeing the line.
Attacking GEO and than pretending he didn't know anything about it.
Blood on the streets of Karachi by his ghunday's.
Showing his inability to deal with the Lal Masjid issue.
These are just the current issues in which he has shown his overwhelming incompetency and ruthlessness in case of Karachi murders.
oh those results are delivered by all govts.
I was talking more along the lines of economic growth that has been noticed by major global organizations (but then maybe moodys worldbank analysts etc are all on ISI payroll)
PS: thank u for hanging up on me :(
Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
let's have a fair election and let all the guys stand in that election and let the people decide, doodh ka doodh or panni ka panni. Why are Mush supporters so afraid of a fair election. While I am no supporter of BB and Nawaz I do firmly believe that the people of Pakistan have a right to decide who should govern them, that decision should not be made by a military dictator. What is he afraid of?
Return of BB or Nawaz is insignificant to the elections. It is more likely to disrupt the election rather help. Just let Altaf give his speech in Karachi and see things go down. It works when these three have their mouth shut. I do not think any Mushrraf supporters are affraid of them. I would just say if any of those two are 'elected', take the dollar funds out of the account.
Mushrraf is going away. If not killed than he will be out as a President. I do not think he has age or patience to go through the corrupt politicians one by one. He will remain in army and will not run as President, my guess.
The only thing he is trying to achieve is have someone else has President and Prime Minister, than BB and Nawaz. These two have destroyed the country in their term(s). The same two who are running around talking about justice and opposing military participation in politics are guilty for the mess. I do not see Musharraf hatered for party, ethnicity or province. He just want someone else to rule the country, someone like Aziz, who is qualified, sincere and widely respected in the country. Someone who will not politicize Pakistani issues.
Mushrraf cares a lot about his legacy. He had million chances to be the next Zia or Ayub, but he held back. At least give him that much credit.
Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
Bhai, aap bhie bohut khoob kahtay hain 
You mean decision on Altaf Hussain should be voters of Karachi and decision on Suicide bombers should be voters of Lal-building? You mean decision on BB corruption should be Jiyala voters and corruption of NS should be decided by his voter supports? Well, as Pakistan is, same person could be declared as most pacifist and honest or terrorist and corrupts if decided by different set of voters.
If you so much believe on voters, why not extend the same method for all (as all Pakistanis should have same right)? Take courts out of Pakistani system and all corrupts, thieves, thugs, plunderers, muggers, murderers, extorters etc should be decided by peoples vote, right? Let have a system where a person can do murder and start campaigning to people that to vote him and clear him of murder, right?
I hope that you know that Farooq Leghari was close to Bhutto family and knew BB more then most of her voters who never even saw her? Actually she voted Farooq Laghari as President, and Farooq Laghari was very close to her in person to know her most realities. If Farooq Laghari claims that she is corrupt and terrorist (as she was behind many extra judicial killings and also behind her brother’s killing), how can you or anyone say that he is wrong? Now, what voters you are talking about? Do you mean Jiyalas that have her pictures in their wash room, and day dream about her all the time, and would kill for her and vote for her whatever? [This is what Pakistan politics is].
Well, it does not happen anywhere in democracy that cases of corruption and terrorism get decided by people, but everywhere it is investigated and decided by government servants, like law enforcement agencies and bureaucrats. In all world respectable democracy, no corrupt and criminal could contest election. These things only happen in third world corrupt countries and only third world ignorant voters consider that vote is a method to determine a person’s innocence.
****Nevertheless, even under the constitution of Pakistan, any corrupt person could not contest election (article 62 and article 63), so if voters decides who is corrupt or not and that who should govern them regardless of they being corrupt or not, than how can anyone stops a corrupt person even contest election and stop them to reach a position of governance? Because voter can only decide who govern them if a person is allowed to contest election, regardless of that candidate is corrupt or honest, right? ********You answer this and I will go along with you, that let everyone contest election, be they corrupt or honest, and let the voter decides who is corrupt and honest and who deserve to govern them, regardless of they are corrupt or not :halo: ****
Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
Lying as usual 
unless u provide a link which proves it, which u won’t because it’s another falsehood from you
Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
Tell me something, under the same constitution which you are quoting above are people like the Gujrat theives, Sheeda tulli and the rest of his gang entitled to fight the election. Try and keep the answer short and if you think they are entitled to fight the election maybe you can tell me what is the difference between them and BB and Nawaz. In fact there is hardly anyone more corrupt than the Gujrat chaudhris in Pakistan and they are Mush’s biggest baillies.
Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
**let's have a fair election **and let all the guys stand in that election and let the people decide, doodh ka doodh or panni ka panni. Why are Mush supporters so afraid of a fair election. While I am no supporter of BB and Nawaz I do firmly believe that the people of Pakistan have a right to decide who should govern them, that decision should not be made by a military dictator. What is he afraid of?
Good suggestion......but is it a promising one for good future for Pakistan?? I think NO (though, I have very limited insight about Pakistani politics)
So let's dissect Musharraf's overall policy as an outsider and I notice it scores more over previous leaders.
The biggest achievement of Musharraf as a head of Government is that his entire tenure is CURRUPTION FREE...and that is a big achievement for any leader in South Asia, given the fact that curruption was always been rampant in Siyasat and Naukarshahi (Beaurocracy).
I can't find a single Prime Minister in India from last 20 years, who can say that there was no corruption charges against his government.
Damn, even political Monarchs like Rajiv Gandhi had their fair share of dirt.
Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
By sacking CJ in a way not happened in banana republic of Africa third class country...the examiner has reconsidered his decision and put negative markin...so his marks may be now - 40 or even less...
but if we are going to then say that we cant have criminals and ppl with pathetic records running, whether its because they have a long list of charges and allegatiosn against them or whatever, then lets be fair.
I see no difference in altaf and benazir and nawaz.
yes...as Alltaf elected on basis of hatred of other provinces and foolish people voted him..may be again the same foolishness...
atlest BB and Nawaz are not qatil ...facist and hitler off-springs...
in karachi the ghundas had to deal with local ghundas, and got big time phainti.
when you fight for a biggest cause of rule of law and against dictatorsship of dictator...phainti is a very little deal ...
because some people want to enjoy seats..while some are ready to quit...so you cannot measure every politician with same scale...
PS: thank u for hanging up on m
140 suicide in last month in only Punjab....mostly for poverty....plz..have a visit to "shining" Pakistan !!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
But i have already have a new tooth paste .....so no mood of laughing yet !!!!!
Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
let's have a fair election and let all the guys stand in that election and let the people decide, doodh ka doodh or panni ka panni. Why are Mush supporters so afraid of a fair election. While I am no supporter of BB and Nawaz I do firmly believe that the people of Pakistan have a right to decide who should govern them, that decision should not be made by a military dictator. What is he afraid of?
100 % right....
democracy maens let people decide....
16 crore people are not so fool and damn...
they have seen all the ping pong games of thier leaders on TV...as media is now out of control in politics..everything crystal clear...
people have seen....
*dirty techniques of BB with dealing with establishment....
cowardness of NS but bravery on no dealing at all
munafiqaat of Fazlul rahman on Hadood Bill for not leaving NWFP and Balochistan Assemblies...
bravery of qazi and JI to resign
hitler and stalin tactics of MQM
*Bravery and boldness of Imran Khan
development of Chaudry Pervez in Punjab....
munafiqat of shaikh Rasheed
etc etc...
lets all those in fair and free ellection...and let 16 crore decide who to take to seat ..and to who show the boots....
Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
By sacking CJ in a way not happened in banana republic of Africa third class country...the examiner has reconsidered his decision and put negative markin...so his marks may be now - 40 or even less...
The economic development that Pakistan has seen is a fact. go and ask all the analysts to reverse their assessments and I may consider your opinion with any merit.
yes...as Alltaf elected on basis of hatred of other provinces and foolish people voted him..may be again the same foolishness...
speaking of foolish people, people elected BB and Nawaaz twice. I guess the nation is a sucker for puishment
atlest BB and Nawaz are not qatil ...facist and hitler off-springs...
do read UN human rights assessment of Benazir's rule. More people died on avg in benazir's rule than now.
140 suicide in last month in only Punjab....mostly for poverty....plz..have a visit to "shining" Pakistan !!!!!!!!!!!!
poverty rate has been reduced, this is the assessment of major international economic analysts.
plz expand your media and information choices and put nawae waqt aside for a little bit.
Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
Your knowledge of MQM just shows how much you know about Karachi. Human right abuse is human right abuse, you do not need to use it as a political agenda otherwise majority of other ethinicity would not join this same party. Moreover, the party members would not remain in the same party. Pakistanis in general do not care about each other, their sympathies for each other are mostly on political bases. No body knows the name and life of those who died during the genocide of '95, '96. Neither will anyone will ever know anything about the 41 died during recent mayhem. Those people who are protesting are using those dead bodies to capture seats, not make Pakistan better.
MQM as mafia, man you have some political insight, don't you.
I actually dont know what you are trying to say. "majority of other ethnicity"... what other ethnicity? Pakistanies do not care about each other, nobody knows the names or lives of those who died during the genocide of 95 96?
On what basis are you making all of these claims? I think Pakistanies in general have quite strong tribal instincts which makes them protective about whatever they identify as their group, whether it be muhajir or shia or anything. Being a karachiite and muhajir I know people who cite what happened in 95 96 as one reason for needing MQM, other reasons being protection against other ethnic groups and in general the (valid) reasons of anti muhajir bias. As for nobody remembering who died during 95 96 I do, two people from my mohalla, one aged uncle type man. And I dont even support MQM and I dont even feel that strongly about the muhajir issue. I am not sure if you've ever lived in Karachi but inside a mohalla everyone knows everyone from forever.
I have a cousin who was harassed and targetted by the MQM because he accidentally saw them planning operations. Every day he would be shadowed by a car wherever he went, and it almost came to something much worse. He knows the violent, intimidatory nature of this party very personally, but he votes for MQM because he feels thats the only thing protecting him from the big bad govt and those punjabies and those suicide bombing mullas. My uncle was robbed at gunpoint and later recovered some of his stuff from an MQM HQ because he knew someone in mid-level management, yet he is still going to vote for MQM.
And yes even though it was an analogy, MQM does share mafia-like characteristics. Organized crime, hitmen, intimidation, goons for hire and a fat guy at the top.
We are insular, and so completely invested in our tribe that we are willing to support anyone who fights in their name, even when we are certain of their faults. That does not mean that operations such as those of the 90s werent good reason to be that way.
Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
ravage, you are repeating what I wrote. Pakistanis in general do not care for each other, rather trust and rely on their tribal, ethnic and political affiliations. MQM is armed just like any other political party in Pakistan, difference is those parties abuse each other with paper. With MQM there is always an operation. I have seen in Karachi where MQM areas had 10ft high doors and walls, which closed at 7:00pm night. I have seen Pakistani military and rangers being used to disperse the crowd and media doing its best to generalize the crowd. Even in 90, there are not many MQM supporters. That area is filled with Shia, Sunni because of mosque. Qadiani and other ethinicities like Punjabis and Phatans are very common. I have played cricket with those kids in Jinnah Ground. Problem is when past government heard the name of MQM, they quite conviently assosicated it with terrorism. People are not dumb they know who has commited a crime and who is victim, which is why people are still supporting this group. There is no mafia mentality to collect money for funds. Even though I have seen it from Mullahs who take chanda every Friday for their own purposes.
Elements of every group, if they go astray, either with or without permission does not mean that entire group is involved. Otherwise, Pakistani army are bunch of terrorist who are against their own people. We have to be able to break away from generalizations and understand each other us imperfect human beings.
Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
The economic development that Pakistan has seen is a fact. go and ask all the analysts to reverse their assessments and I may consider your opinion with any merit.
no need of such development which dont trickle down to the poor people of Pakistan
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speaking of foolish people, people elected BB and Nawaaz twice. I guess the nation is a sucker for puishment
[/quote]
they were not qatil of 15,000 people....
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do read UN human rights assessment of Benazir's rule. More people died on avg in benazir's rule than now.
[/quote]
at the expense of saving karachi...thanks God...
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poverty rate has been reduced, this is the assessment of major international economic analysts.
[/quote]
no use on the reality grounds...plz. have a visit....
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plz expand your media and information choices and put nawae waqt aside for a little bit.
[/quote]
yes..the same media which was stopped to show Clinton shaking hands with General in 1999...due to dictatorship...now portraying him as a Saviour ...as he is now the poodle of Bush....
these Hypocrisy is in the blood of West...for thier purposes ...they make evn the donkey thier father...the same of Democrates !!!!
Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
no need of such development which dont trickle down to the poor people of Pakistan
experts are saying it is trickling down. I take their word over yours
they were not qatil of 15,000 people....
go figure out how many ppl died in that era.
at the expense of saving karachi...thanks God...
so the situation is even more dire now,bomb the tribal areas. arrest suspects. but no no that where missing people is a big issue. so ISI picked up ppl in order to save the country, be consistent in your stance.
no use on the reality grounds...plz. have a visit....
parents live there, many other relatives live there. I have seen conditions of poor relatives improve over the last decade due to more opporunities.
these Hypocrisy is in the blood of West...for thier purposes ...they make evn the donkey thier father...the same of Democrates !!!!
hypocrisy is in the blood of the east too. look at thise afghan refugees jo humaray tukron par palay hain and how anti pakistan they are. Look at mullahs and all become anti US while it was US whose suppirt they asked during soviet war, or how our anti US leaders have their kids in US or go to US for healthcare.
hypocrisy is everywhere, its a fact of life. Its interests, as times change interests shift. cant just blame the west for it.
Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
experts are saying it is trickling down. I take their word over yours
go figure out how many ppl died in that era.
so the situation is even more dire now,bomb the tribal areas. arrest suspects. but no no that where missing people is a big issue. so ISI picked up ppl in order to save the country, be consistent in your stance.
parents live there, many other relatives live there. I have seen conditions of poor relatives improve over the last decade due to more opporunities.
hypocrisy is in the blood of the east too. look at thise afghan refugees jo humaray tukron par palay hain and how anti pakistan they are. Look at mullahs and all become anti US while it was US whose suppirt they asked during soviet war, or how our anti US leaders have their kids in US or go to US for healthcare.
hypocrisy is everywhere, its a fact of life. Its interests, as times change interests shift. cant just blame the west for it.
Oh yeah...who are these experts who are saying its trickling down...Have the experts, read you, seen the inflation figures...it's out of control....
Oh really, so ISI picked up the poor Saud Memon who tragically died only a few days after his release weighing a 18 kg...to save the country....
ISI picked up their own agent by the name of Khawaja who was protesting and working to highlight the cause missing people...to save Pakistan
ISI picked Mozzam Beg, (Enemy Combatant), Brit relief worker from his Islamabad home to save the country...
ISI picked up numerous innocent doctors and scientists, who are still missing to save the country...
The list is very long regarding the unconstitutional and gestapo like kidnapping ISI has conducted on its country's own citizens all on Generalisimo's promises to his employers...
Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
hey man ppl said that the cost of ppls lives was worth saving karachi, I am just saying that I guess by the same token, blowing up a few tribals or arresting some terrorism suspects is worth the price for national security too.
as far as experts go, asian development ban and world bank are two. read up
http://www.dawn.com/2006/10/19/top10.htm
WASHINGTON, Oct 18: Preliminary estimates released on Wednesday by the World Bank show that Pakistan’s poverty rate declined by 5 percentage points in the first half of this decade.
The bank’s World Development Report for 2007 also praises Pakistan as “one of the top 10 global reformers” last year
Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
Tell me something, under the same constitution which you are quoting above are people like the Gujrat theives, Sheeda tulli and the rest of his gang entitled to fight the election. Try and keep the answer short and if you think they are entitled to fight the election maybe you can tell me what is the difference between them and BB and Nawaz. In fact there is hardly anyone more corrupt than the Gujrat chaudhris in Pakistan and they are Mush's biggest baillies.
Did I ever write anywhere that corrupt person, whoever they may be (Chaudhari or Shareef, Bhutto or whoever), should be entitled to take part in election?
As far as I am concerned, allowing a convicted or proven corrupt person to take part in election is unconstitutional and crime of election commission and establishment. Such persons even if they get elected, could not be considered as legally elected member, but their seats should be considered vacant and they could/should be thrown from power by establishment any time they like.
To me, proof of corruption is enough if a person ever held public posts (as politician or government servants) and have expenses or living beyond their means and/or have wealth that they cannot justify obtaining by legal means.
Re: Muttahida screens footage of violence.
experts are saying it is trickling down. I take their word over yours
you can take...but these experts have never been to pakistan..while i living in pakistan can show you the better picture...whats really going on....
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go figure out how many ppl died in that era.
[/quote]
not be the Government...but MQM bloodshed is under the umbrella of General Musharraf..so it is state terrorism..even worse....
[quote]
so the situation is even more dire now,bomb the tribal areas. arrest suspects. but no no that where missing people is a big issue. so ISI picked up ppl in order to save the country, be consistent in your stance.
[/quote]
when Al_qaeda directly attacked 3 or 4 times the General..so its more than a personal fight between General and Al-Qaeda...moreover..after USA attacked Afghanistan...thousands came to Tribal areas...and formed new base camp....and started doing thier work...so blame came directly to Pakistan...thats why General took this order of crack down on tribal areas...and as a result...we ahve faced sui cide bombings...ISI took many people...some were really terrorists...Al_Qaeda no. 2 also arrested by ISI...so ...in confusion..some innocents also caught and sent to X ray camp...its happen in such cases..as in Karachi operation of Naseer ulllah babar happened...
[quote]
parents live there, many other relatives live there. I have seen conditions of poor relatives improve over the last decade due to more opporunities.
[/quote]
nope...only every one has a mobile in his hand...and mobile cannot be aa indicator of a economicla growth...Federal Bureau of Statistics reported that poverty increases ...but Governmentis not willing to publish this official results...yes ..development is there..but at the same rates...prices increased dramatically...so no real benifit....
[quote]
hypocrisy is in the blood of the east too. look at thise afghan refugees jo humaray tukron par palay hain and how anti pakistan they are. Look at mullahs and all become anti US while it was US whose suppirt they asked during soviet war, or how our anti US leaders have their kids in US or go to US for healthcare.
hypocrisy is everywhere, its a fact of life. Its interests, as times change interests shift. cant just blame the west for it.
[/quote]
i agree...everyone looks its interest...but these al-qaeda goons were the same who were treated as emperors on thier vists to USA ...during 80's era...and when uni-polarity of USA established in 1988 ...USA left all these scattered millitants...who in the pride that..if they can defeat USSR...why not USA...for what its policy in Middle East...and same thing is happening now in Afghanistan...and Iraq...i do not say that USA and allies are facing defeat....they have been defeated.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
in every manner...in every front...morally...spirtually ...mentally...and millitarilly...game is over now...