problem here is not to check the authenticity of Quran but to proof the authenticity of medium through the Quran
because if quran is trasferred to us through muslims
and same people brought hadees
there is not a single lie or alteration in Quran that means the people (muslims ) who brought the Quran to us are trustworthy and thoes people also brought hadees, so how they can say true on one side and lie on other side
Tell me yes or no, agree Allaah without any medium also could protect the Quran if no you are in trouble, i already told you i agree with your line ofunderstanding for providing the proof but here its more about believing in Quran more and i again emphasize my point about Verse 18:27.
Regarding the preservation of Quran please read Ulum Al quran by Ahmed Von its a amazing one and remember here we are talking about Allah preserving the Quran because Allaah promised i hope you could understand my post earlier to this.
I feel more then a rebuttal you are just emphasizing on mypoints and giving a clear picture, i am sorry but i found as a support to me rather than a rebuttal more of summarizing my topic.
sorry , actually i was trying to tell thoes who think that ahadees are wrong because they were told to them by people but Quran is true as it was told to them by Allah
Tell me yes or no, agree Allaah without any medium also could protect the Quran if no you are in trouble, i already told you i agree with your line ofunderstanding for providing the proof but here its more about believing in Quran more and i again emphasize my point about Verse 18:27.
Regarding the preservation of Quran please read Ulum Al quran by Ahmed Von its a amazing one and remember here we are talking about Allah preserving the Quran because Allaah promised i hope you could understand my post earlier to this.
Well i cant take it more to understand.
yes Allah is saving Quran but Question is how ??
and answer is via trustworthy people( muslims )
from generation to generation
problem here is not to check the authenticity of Quran but to proof the authenticity of medium through the Quran
This should only come up in secular discussions. Theologically, there is no mention of any medium, or reliance on individuals.
So, we need to make clear how we want to discuss this issue: from a secular, skeptical view or from the view of a believer.
There is ample evidence to suggest that the Quran was treated distinctly from Hadeeth in terms of importance given to the learning of the former over the latter.
[quote]
there is not a single lie or alteration in Quran that means the people (muslims ) who brought the Quran to us are trustworthy...
[/quote]
I see no evidence for the reliance of people in the preservation of the Quran.
In any case, the Quran's path to us is different from the Hadith. The Quran was already distributed amongst Muslims well before the scholars made an effort to catalog the Hadith.
The Hadith are important as a historical document, but they have no religious mandate or divine protection. Whereas the Quran is central to the faith, the Hadith are a "nice to have".
tomorrow i will right a book and will right there that " I am the Musharaf Almight"
and then you people will say God is saying that he is in musharaf form in the world
and you can refer that God is mosharaf (naozbillah) and it is written in his book
"musharaf almighty" page x line y
and that will be the proof that God had told you directly
will that be acceptable to you :p
If you wish to argue like a Kafir, then we need to change the tone of the discussion.
It was my presumption that you are a Muslim, and so Muslims are obligated to have certain beliefs around the Quran and it's qualities.
The religious understanding is that God's revelation is timeless and intact.
The notion that the *same *people who gave us the hadith are responsible for transmitting the Quran is simply wrong, theologically and historically. The compiled Quran (in book form) came from the major figures of Islam...not companions who were on the sidelines.
The Quran's structure and content was well-known. We, to this day don't even know if the Hadith are complete, or even if any of the authentic ones are in fact not authentic. We rely on probability for that, which is perfectly reasonable and rational. But we DO NOT reason the same way about any ayat in the Quran.
The Quran's transmission was ordered. Writing down of Hadith was at best approved of, even though there was no command to write down every single saying of the Prophet (pbuh).
One can go on and on about the differences between the Quran and the Hadith.
its up to you
and i agree with you , that i have bolded
thats shows you are unaware with islamic history
here you are also missing many things
scholars doesn’t effort to catalog the ahadees
they differentiated ahadees with proper reference with thoes who donot have reference
here you are also wrong
ahadees are also devine
but the reference and wording is human effort and there the contradicts lies
If you wish to argue like a Kafir, then we need to change the tone of the discussion.
as you wish
[quote]
It was my presumption that you are a Muslim, and so Muslims are obligated to have certain beliefs around the Quran and it's qualities.
[/quote]
by the way alhumdulliah i am muslim
and belief in Quran through contradiction
as i fail to find any problem in Quran , so i believe it is true and can't be made by any human.
sorry i am unable to believe anything without any proof
i believe in Allah because i am unable to neglect Quran and then i am able to see the signs of Allah shown through Quran
so what ever you think of me , its upto you
[quote]
The religious understanding is that God's revelation is timeless and intact.
The notion that the *same *people who gave us the hadith are responsible for transmitting the Quran is simply wrong, theologically and historically. The compiled Quran (in book form) came from the major figures of Islam...not companions who were on the sidelines.
[/quote]
still there are many ayat which refer and shows that Ahadees are also from devine
and what you are writing i am sure you will not be able to find thoes ayat
but they are there , when you will fail , then i will show you
and it will become clear to you ( if you wish to ) that both ahadees and Quran are part of same wahi
and what Allah had promised is for both Quran and ahadees
and if you read history , without pre-judging you will see , people are the main source through which we believe that Quran has not changed
[quote]
The Quran's structure and content was well-known. We, to this day don't even know if the Hadith are complete, or even if any of the authentic ones are in fact not authentic. We rely on probability for that, which is perfectly reasonable and rational. But we DO NOT reason the same way about any ayat in the Quran.
[/quote]
you think about ahadees from a non muslim point of view
and when Quran comes you think from a muslim point of view
kindly think both from one point of view
and then it will be clear to you
The Quran's transmission was ordered. Writing down of Hadith was at best approved of, even though there was no command to write down every single saying of the Prophet (pbuh).
One can go on and on about the differences between the Quran and the Hadith.
yes Allah is saving Quran but Question is how ??
and answer is via trustworthy people( muslims )
from generation to generation
Yes before writing here, I want here to have more emphasis from the Quran. Well we do believe it came to us througha medium, no doubt about it well you not getting the point here we are not talking Quran coming to us through a medium but Allaah guarding the Quran.
Now let me tell you Islam is a religion of fitrah i.e. natural disposition for most of the people in the world the word God or supreme power is quite natural, hunger, sex are natural to any human being no one teaches us this but it comes to us natural.
Now let me try to make you understand if Allaah willed, i repeat again if Allaah willed it wasnt necessary for any human being on the face of earth to reveal the Quran, Allaah in his divine knowledge has power over all things. But yes since it was knowledge and a rational way for a human to believe Allaah sent us messengers who were human so that they can provide us the knowledge of Allaah so now the messengers were a source for Allaah, but if Allaah willed again if Allaah willed this wasn't necessar because if Allaah says it is be and it is.
Now similar for the Quran also, if Allaah willed there would be no sources needed to protect the Quran but Allaah, had a rationale way of passing the Quran to us thats through the generation of muslims, if Allaah wanted this wasnt necessary again if Allaah willed.
Now the question on hand is Quran was/is/will be protected by Allaah or human beings. Answer is ofcourse Allaah and we humans are just sources for Allaah. Like Allaah said in the holy Quran Allaah doesnt need us, but we need Allaah and Allaah is the best of planners.
Look at the other holy books Injeel, torah and zaboor the books were corrupted even those are the books of Allaah but in the Quran its wonderful Allaah challenges the disbelievers in the Quran, infact perfects our religion and also is promised to guard the book of Allaah and Allaah said its Allaah's responsibility the medium were only the sources so that for a less capacity human brain we can try to rationalize the preservation of the Quran.
But I agree for MUSLIMS its enough as it is said in the Quran that Allaah will protect the Quran, but for NON MUSLIMS i agree we have to make them understand by providing them with some rational and thats when we believe that we have to challenge them to go to tashkent and compare the Quranof today and also the medium of protecting the Quran.
The greatest miracles of the Quran is even after 1400 years its in its pristice form as if Quran was revealed today, otherwise the complete claim of Quran being an eternal book is debunked.
Yes before writing here, I want here to have more emphasis from the Quran. Well we do believe it came to us througha medium, no doubt about it well you not getting the point here we are not talking Quran coming to us through a medium but Allaah guarding the Quran.
hmm okey
[quote]
Now let me tell you Islam is a religion of fitrah i.e. natural disposition for most of the people in the world the word God or supreme power is quite natural, hunger, sex are natural to any human being no one teaches us this but it comes to us natural.
[/quote]
you can say , but in my thinking it is not religion of fitrah
but leave this for now
[quote]
Now let me try to make you understand if Allaah willed,
[/quote]
make sure in mind that Allah will never willed unGodly things
as he can't lie
he can't take human form etc etc
[quote]
i repeat again if Allaah willed it wasnt necessary for any human being on the face of earth to reveal the Quran, Allaah in his divine knowledge has power over all things.
[/quote]
beshak
[quote]
But yes since it was knowledge and a rational way for a human to believe Allaah sent us messengers who were human so that they can provide us the knowledge of Allaah so now the messengers were a source for Allaah, but if Allaah willed again if Allaah willed this wasn't necessar because if Allaah says it is be and it is.
[/quote]
agreed
[quote]
Now similar for the Quran also, if Allaah willed there would be no sources needed to protect the Quran but Allaah, had a rationale way of passing the Quran to us thats through the generation of muslims, if Allaah wanted this wasnt necessary again if Allaah willed.
[/quote]
if Allah willed
[quote]
Now the question on hand is Quran was/is/will be protected by Allaah or human beings. Answer is ofcourse Allaah and we humans are just sources for Allaah. Like Allaah said in the holy Quran Allaah doesnt need us, but we need Allaah and Allaah is the best of planners.
[/quote]
okey
[quote]
Look at the other holy books Injeel, torah and zaboor the books were corrupted even those are the books of Allaah but in the Quran its wonderful Allaah challenges the disbelievers in the Quran, infact perfects our religion and also is promised to guard the book of Allaah and Allaah said its Allaah's responsibility the medium were only the sources so that for a less capacity human brain we can try to rationalize the preservation of the Quran.
[/quote]
okey
[quote]
But I agree for MUSLIMS its enough as it is said in the Quran that Allaah will protect the Quran, but for NON MUSLIMS i agree we have to make them understand by providing them with some rational and thats when we believe that we have to challenge them to go to tashkent and compare the Quranof today and also the medium of protecting the Quran.
[/quote]
okey
[quote]
The greatest miracles of the Quran is even after 1400 years its in its pristice form as if Quran was revealed today, otherwise the complete claim of Quran being an eternal book is debunked.
[/QUOTE]
still there are many others way to check the authenticity of Quran , prior to checking the Quran with one in tashkand
still same point left
i was saying that normally when we look towards ahadees
we take non muslim point of view
and when we look towards Quran we take muslims point of view
this should not be happen
Quran and Ahadees should be looked with one point of view
either it should be muslim or non muslim
^Well you havent understoodn what i have mentioned still catching on tashkent it was just an eg. not an ultimate. I never meant from hadith pov at all, but cant help if you live with it fine and i never mentioned Allaah will take human form, so that i commit kufr and never mentioned hadith also if you could try to think you would get what i am trying to prove.
Your stukc with hadith and Quran but my line of argument is different hopefully you could understand what i meant.
The onlookers will now see what is the best for them.
Next PM me and prove me its not a deen of fitrah i am right here challenging you on this. Well waiting for your PM with solid evidences, from both Quran and hadith.
Well take care, Salamvalekum
^Well you havent understoodn what i have mentioned still catching on tashkent it was just an eg. not an ultimate. I never meant from hadith pov at all, but cant help if you live with it fine and i never mentioned Allaah will take human form, so that i commit kufr and never mentioned hadith also if you could try to think you would get what i am trying to prove.
Your stukc with hadith and Quran but my line of argument is different hopefully you could understand what i meant.
The onlookers will now see what is the best for them.
Next PM me and prove me its not a deen of fitrah i am right here challenging you on this. Well waiting for your PM with solid evidences, from both Quran and hadith.
Well take care, Salamvalekum
As I wish what? Either one believes or they don't...anyone can convince themselves they have proof, but more often than not it fails any objective criteria.
Belief is just that. Why on earth be ashamed of that? Either it's true, or it's not. Simple.
[quote[
and belief in Quran through contradiction
as i fail to find any problem in Quran , so i believe it is true and can't be made by any human.
[/quote]
Well, I don't know of a single scholar (traditional or otherwise) who espouses such a view. It's a rather modern perspective...no?
[quote]
so what ever you think of me , its upto you
[/quote]
Wasn't intended as a personal attack...just want to know if you want to discuss this as we would with secular/atheist folk, or believers.
[quote]
still there are many ayat which refer and shows that Ahadees are also from devine
[/quote]
The Hadith as we know them were compiled well after the Quran. The Quran exhorts the companions to follow the example of the Prophet (pbuh). The Hadith are recordings of some of those examples. It's a bit inaccurate to say they are one in the same.
The compilation of the Hadith, the manner in which it was done, and the end result have nothing to do with the revelation and collection of the Quran.
Not a single Quranic ayat at any point in Islamic history was subject to the same criteria of validity as the Hadith were. There is no isnad for the Quran...
[quote]
and what you are writing i am sure you will not be able to find thoes ayat
but they are there , when you will fail , then i will show you
[/quote]
Sure...
[quote]
and what Allah had promised is for both Quran and ahadees
and if you read history , without pre-judging you will see , people are the main source through which we believe that Quran has not changed
[/quote]
I don't* believe* that. The Quran makes no such claim. Indeed, if people had even tried, they could not have corrupted the original message to the extent that it would be lost to us forever. Such is the promise made.
No doubt, that argument doesn't wash in a secular debate. But then, that's not the angle I'm approaching this.
[quote]
you think about ahadees from a non muslim point of view
and when Quran comes you think from a muslim point of view
[/quote]
No, no non-muslim regards the Hadith as an important historical body of knowledge that should impact how we regulate religious affairs. Do not mistake me for a rejecter of Hadith. But when people make the rather false and lofty claim that the Hadith and the Quran are one in the same, they need to be corrected.
its my own criteria , if you don’t like its up to you
i only say , look towards Quran and hadees with one point of view
either it should be secular or believers
not separate
wrong, from the time of Hazoor PBUH
and he gave premission to write his words to many sahaba
have you ever read about wahi matlo and gher matlo ( if i am not forgetting the right name )
that describe that source of both is same
compilation of hadees is different then what ahadees is
sorry you forgot , the isnad for Quran is being motawatir , told to many by Hazoor PBUH
and Quran authenticity lies on the fact that you trust that Hazoor PBUH said it is from Allah and he PBUH had never lie.
First of check either ahadees is part of revelation or not,
002.143
YUSUFALI: Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and **We appointed the Qibla **to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful
now just check and find in Quran where Allah had refered to offer prayer by faceing towards first Qibla , to whom in this ayat Allah is saying
“we appointed the Qibla”
if quran is the only devine revelation , then there should be some ayat when Allah had made first qibla for muslim but we can’t find
the Above verse surely describes that there are other revelations to Hazoor PBUH along with Quran , so Quran is not the only revelation and hadees are also the revelations of Allah SWT
Hazoor PBUH have never said anything from his own , he was always guided by Allah SWT
so now if any one says that Ahadees are not revelations , then he is surely on wrong path
now to check that
Allah have saved Ahadees along with Quran
The Quran specifically orders us to follow the hadeeths. Therefore, if we claim to follow the Quran, we also must follow the hadeeth.
Examples:
“And whoever obeys Allah and His mesenger, he has indeed achieved a great achievement (being saved from the Hell Fire and made to enter the Paradise).” [Quran 33:71]
“And whoever obeys Allah and His messenger will be admitted to Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise), to live therein forever, and that will be a great success.” [Quran 4:13]
“And whoever obeys Allah and His messenger, fears Allah and keeps his duty (to Him), such are the successful ones.” [Quran 24:52]
“And whoever obeys Allah and His messenger, He will admit him to Gardens beneath which rivers flow (Paradise); and whoever turns back, He will punish him with a painful torment.” [Quran 48:17]
"Say, (meaning for Muhammad, peace be upon him, to speak to the people) “If you truly love Allah, then follow me. Then only will Allah love you and forgive your sins. He is the Forgiver the Merciful.” [Quran 3:31]
Here is one verse in the Quran that leaves no doubt about the validity of knowing what Muhammad, peace be upon him, has ordered to do and the importance of doing it. This is in [surah Al-Mujadilah 58:8]
“Have you not seen those who were forbidden to hold secret coucels, and afterwards returned to that which they had been forbidden (to do by the messenger Muhammad, peace be upon him), and conspired together for sin and wrong doing and disobedience to the messenger (Muhammad, peace be upon him).” - He promises them Hell, burning therein and worse indeed is that destination. [Quran 58:8]
O you who believe! Obey Allah and OBEY THE MESSENGER (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. [Quran 4:59]
Say: “Obey Allah and OBEY THE MESSENGER, but if you turn away, he (Messenger Muhammad SAW) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah’s Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger’s duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way (i.e. to preach in a plain way).” [Quran 24:54]
O you who believe! Obey Allah, and OBEY THE MESSENGER (Muhammad SAW) and render not vain your deeds. [Quran 47:33]
Obey Allah, and OBEY THE MESSENGER (Muhammad SAW), but if you turn away, then the duty of Our Messenger is only to convey (the Message) clearly. [Quran 64:12]
**Now pay very close attention to the next two verses, as they do not refer to obeying Allah - only obeying the messenger - clearly proving to anyone that Muhammad, peace be upon him is to be obeyed and it is the same as obeying Allah. **
He who obeys the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), has indeed OBEYED ALLAH, but he who turns away, then we have not sent you (O Muhammad SAW) as a watcher over them. [Quran 4:80]
And perform AsSalat (IqamatasSalat), and give Zakat and OBEY THE MESSENGER (Muhammad SAW) that you may receive mercy (from Allah). [Quran 24:56]
There can be no doubt that if the Quran is to be preserved (and Allah has promised to do so until the sun rises in the West), then the teachings of the messenger of Allah must also be preserved as well. Therefore, the Quran has clearly indicated we must know about the hadeeth and obey the teachings contained therein, or else suffer the consequences.
Ok tell me if this is possible cross your heart and tell me Quran and hadith can be looked from one pov, well both of the same source well i hope so but if you say of the same source. With that
The theme of the Quran and hadith are different
The language difference in terms of Quran being eloquent.
Here i say Muhammad saws is the Prophet of Allaah but with same source the difference was different from Quran and hadith.
Agreed on this no doubt atleast after reading the Mohammed Azami who has done a great detailed study on Early Hadith literature i.e. hadith compiled before Bukhari and the methodology of combinging the hadith.
But according to the scholars this was never an issue, because Allaah promised will protect the Quran.
No Quran authenticity lies on prophet for sure but it more lies on the book itself. For me to believe in the quran i dont have to 1400 years back similar to going back 2000 years to see if christ was really crucified, i dont have to 1400 yeasr back to really believe there was a prophet because Quran was an eternal miracle of the prophet and that whatmakes me believe that Prophet is the Messenger of God.
So my point of believing in the Prophet is the Quran, and through the Quran i believe Prophet Mohammed saws was the messenger of Allaah, did you get this.
Usman saab no one is actually rejecting the hadith your line of argument is wrong we believe Quran is guarded by Allaah you understand what we mean.
Now i will give you an hadith,which was told by prophet in most of the Jumuah khutbah
Khairal Hadisi kitabu Allaah, wa khairal hadii hadii Mohammed saws, wa sharak umuuru mohdasa tuha, wa kullu mohadasatin bida’h wa kullu bidattin dalala wa kullu dalalatin fin naar,
I will only translat the first sentence that is the best of discourse, guidance is the book of Allaah and then the guidance of Prophet.
Now remember in Sahih bukhari its mentioned Hazrath Ali mentioned that i will rule by the book of Allaah, Abu Bakr, Umar all ruled by the book of Allaah that was there oath.
Now if we have to imagine of taking the Quran and Hadith together we are on the otherside
We are going against the sayin gof the Prophet
Sayings of the Salaf i.e. the righteous predecessors.
Now the ball is in your court decide whether Quran and Hadith can be looked from one pov and if we can provide me with reference now all the mentioned hadith are sahih.
Here is one verse in the Quran that leaves no doubt about the validity of knowing what Muhammad, peace be upon him, has ordered to do and the importance of doing it. This is in [surah Al-Mujadilah 58:8]
Again the same holds above and well understand this holds true because Prophet was send as mercy to mankind.
Agreed but with this verse you wanna prove that Quran and Hadith are one and the same and should be given equal weightage then you go agains the hadith of Prophet itself now decide.
**
Again your line of undestanding is wrong we are mention regarding Quran being guarded not by denying these verses and denying the hadith please come over it.**
**
Yes now this is news to me wasnt Quran thought by the Prophet as he was the best example to follow**
](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=241487&)
No one is denying the hadith and again your line of reasoning is wrong we are only taking into consideration the hadith which does not contradict the Quran and if it does then we are into problem as we become Hadith worshippers by disobeying the quran as none of the Prophet hadith can be against the Quran and if it is then you decide what should be done.
Again best discourse is the book of Allaah.
Sorry even though I wanted to refrain from entering the discussion I couldn’t stay back.
Br. MeHereAlone, I can’t seem to pick up a coherent theme in your replies. Could you please write bullet points about what you want to say and the reason why you say it that way. I would appreciate it and would like to discuss with you.
really now discussion ground had gone so wide , that even i am confuse , to talk on what point
what initially i was talking about
when people talk about Quran , they take muslims point of view ie with faith
and give prove about its athenticity from within Quran to show is true
and you know for non muslim it is not accepted
when people talk about ahadees , they take non muslims point of view , that is start checking ahadees from their merit etc
what i am trying to say , is, kindly think either both with non muslim point of view or both with muslim point of view
that always lead us to the correct decision, otherwise people start rejecting ahadees, and this is happening everywhere
i think you are not being able to understand me , and i am unable to understand your point of view
now again i start with simple words
Hazoor PBUH told that Quran comes to him from Allah and these are direct words of Allah and recorded as wahi matlo ( means jis ki talawat hoti hay )
from Quran it is evident that there is another revelation other then Quran to Hazoor PBUH as well and that have been recorded in Hazoor PBUH words for complete explanation and called as wahi gher matlo ( means jis ki talawat naeen hoti )
source of both : Allah
now from your point of view ie believers point of view
now you believe in Quran , so you believe in Prophet Muhammad
and Quran says , obey Prophet Muhammad
if this sentence of quran should remain true
Prophet Muhammad PBUH teachings other then Quranic words should be saved otherwise this Quranic sentences would turn in to false
and by that way , if Allah had saved Quran , Allah had saved ahadees , so that Quran remain true
if you still don’t understand , plz ask , i had tried to explain as simple as possible
sorry i didn’t pick you here
plz explain again thanx , i hope you not mind
[quote]
Here is one verse in the Quran that leaves no doubt about the validity of knowing what Muhammad, peace be upon him, has ordered to do and the importance of doing it. This is in [surah Al-Mujadilah 58:8]
Again the same holds above and well understand this holds true because Prophet was send as mercy to mankind.
Agreed but with this verse you wanna prove that Quran and Hadith are one and the same and should be given equal weightage then you go agains the hadith of Prophet itself now decide.
**
Again your line of undestanding is wrong we are mention regarding Quran being guarded not by denying these verses and denying the hadith please come over it.**
**
Yes now this is news to me wasnt Quran thought by the Prophet as he was the best example to follow**
[
to the Question that ahadees which contradict the Quran
i just say, we can’t take ahadees as ayat why, ayat can stand alone ( mostly , but some don’t )
but for ahadees , what we say in urdu ( siaqo sabaq ) is necessary before passing any judgement on behalf of that hadees
mostly when we see the hadith which some time looks contradictory with Quran
and checks its background , we always comes that thoes were exception given to some people with , if and buts and thoes can’t be apply generally
really now discussion ground had gone so wide , that even i am confuse , to talk on what point
what initially i was talking about
when people talk about Quran , they take muslims point of view ie with faith
and give prove about its athenticity from within Quran to show is true
and you know for non muslim it is not accepted
when people talk about ahadees , they take non muslims point of view , that is start checking ahadees from their merit etc
what i am trying to say , is, kindly think either both with non muslim point of view or both with muslim point of view
that always lead us to the correct decision, otherwise people start rejecting ahadees, and this is happening everywhere
Bro, I think underneath you have nice points however please lets warp back in history. This is not an issue created by the present generations of muslims.
The great Imams or scholars of hadith must have had reason to classify hadith and take a non-muslim POV (as you are refering to it). We do not have any evidence to suggest they took such a POV regarding the Quran. There has got to be a reason. I think there is no such thing as muslim POV or Non-muslim POV. Its all about authenticity and preservation. Why did the great Imams not have any doubts about the Quran yet they had doubts about the narrative information available the Sunnah of the Prophet SAW. Why were they convinced that the Mushaf that existed in their days was not adulterated. Personally I think it might be because the Quran already existed in written form from the time of its revelation and there is no significant lapse from its time of revelation to its compilation. In case of the ahadith, it was all narrative information spread in the Arabian society but very little was recorded in written form (at least not enough to hold a degree of authenticity). The truth (as far as I have concluded thus far) is that none of the narrative information in the ahadith attributed to the prophet SAW or his companions is certain because none of them were alive when the Sahihs were compiled. The ahadith work is third generation muslim work. With a few exceptions maybe all information beyond the second generation of muslims must have existed only in narrative forms in the minds of the third generation of muslims. Imam Maliks work might be the only exception though. Hadith were not written down at their time of occurance. One thing that really depresses me is that though earlier copies of the Quran were preserved no such pain was taken for ahadith literature which was originally used as the foundations for ahadith.
Every original literature has been destroyed and we are only left with attestations of those who claim to have absorbed those original works into their collections.
The attempt to devalue the Quran by some here is deplorable I think. I ask again, why there is such a thing as weak vs strong hadith and no concept like this for the Quran?
