In one of previous discussion one of the esteemed member of this forum (Mr. Khanbabax) that Mutawatir Hadith can supercede an Ayah of Holy Quran. Here is his exact quote:
I want this idea very disturbing that somebody is putting a Hadith above Holy Quran. I want to know what the other members of this forum think about it. Please share your ideas.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
One of the important principle of judging ahadees is to see if it contradicts with Quran, if yes then hadees is said to be fabricated.
keeping above principle in mind, no matter who is mentioned in chain of narration, no matter if it is considered mutawatir, if content contradicts quran the hadees is untrue and fabricated.
The reason given for this principle is that Quran is Pak from all kind of errors and there is no alteration in this divine book.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
This is not just my view, but of the Ahle Sunnah scholars. There are few examples of it, and I will try to locate them.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
I myself cannot understand how you will support this view khanabox? i am surprised and confused .
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
In one of previous discussion one of the esteemed member of this forum (Mr. Khanbabax) that Mutawatir Hadith can supercede an Ayah of Holy Quran. Here is his exact quote:
I want this idea very disturbing that somebody is putting a Hadith above Holy Quran. I want to know what the other members of this forum think about it. Please share your ideas.
Allaah u akbar, is the same guy who also mentioned that Mutawatir hadith is equivalent to Quran later goes on to say its better than the Quran. Later defends it.
I swear by Allaah today the problem with Ummah especially in sub continent is Hadith is treated as the word of God and not Quran, why do people fail to understand Quran is the Word of God and Hadith cannot be compared.
It cannot be comprehended, believe me if these people were during the time of Umar they would be executed for passing such comments. It is the consensus of Ahle sunnah scholars and i dont care let it be any scholar in the world who passes such ruling, let him be the most beloved and I were the head of a ruling government i would execute him.
No second thoughts people are playing with the Quran like its some normal book unless people change there thinking, no one can do anything about these guys.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Allaah u akbar, is the same guy who also mentioned that Mutawatir hadith is equivalent to Quran later goes on to say its better than the Quran. Later defends it.
I swear by Allaah today the problem with Ummah especially in sub continent is Hadith is treated as the word of God and not Quran, why do people fail to understand Quran is the Word of God and Hadith cannot be compared.
It cannot be comprehended, believe me if these people were during the time of Umar they would be executed for passing such comments. It is the consensus of Ahle sunnah scholars and i dont care let it be any scholar in the world who passes such ruling, let him be the most beloved and I were the head of a ruling government i would execute him.
No second thoughts people are playing with the Quran like its some normal book unless people change there thinking, no one can do anything about these guys.
Illama Iqbal says
Khud to badltay nahi quran ko badl daytay haiN.
In Islami history ahadees has been used to justify the cults, each cult ( you name it) have a hadees stating their reason to exist.
the day muslims get back to Quran, will be the day, Glory and Leadership will be given back to Muslims.
ending this reply by quoting Iqbal again
woh zamanay maiN moa'ziz thay muslmaaN ho ker
tum kha'ar howay tarek-e-quran ho ker
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
hamari kamyabi allah ke her hukum ko huzoor S.A.W ke mubarak tareeqoon per poora kerne men he is liye doonoon zuroori hen yani quran and hadith.For example agar ek person donkey ki qurbani deta he us ko qible ke rukh litata he phir dua perh ker churi pherta he to kiya us ki qurbani theek ho gi her giz nahi kiyounke us ne allah ka hukum tora he.Lakin agar koi person goat ki qurbani kerta he aur door se us ke belly me churry mar deta he phir bhi us ki qurbani theek nahi hogi.Kiyounke us ne aap S.A.W ka tareeka ikhtiyar nahi kiya.basically agar koi goat ki qurbani sunat tarake se kare ga than us ki qurbani theek ho jai gi. baat kerne ka maqsad ye he ki quran allah ke ahkaam hen aur hadeeth huzoor S.A.W ke tareeqe hen.doonon ko sath leker chale ge to baat bane gi .Her kaam men quran aur hadith doono ko dikhna pere ga.Kisi ki ahmayer kem nahi
Allah knows best
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats
sorry to burst the bubble but this is not the view of Ahle sunnah scholar. If some twisted scholar holds this view then he is actually saying that then he infact is claiming that quran is not in its pure form. and Allah has not fullfilled his promise to keep it pure, but instead preserved Mutawatir Hadees. It is as simple as that.
By saying
Prophet :saw: can not say or do anything contradictory to Allah’s command
So we deduce from your above quote you mean that
Allah has been negligiant in preserving Quran ? allthough he took this responsibility in his holy book that he would preserve till qayamat
Instead Allah has preserved the ahadees in pure form, for which he took no responsibility whatsoever. Infact no one took this responsibility, so if some of them are pure, then it would merely be by the stroke of luck
Sounds to me like a cult. A muslim scholar can not hold these outrageous view.
Please clarify your position khanbabax.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Just one example for now.
[quote]
The Sunnah Taking Precedence over something in the Qur'an
Are there examples where the sunnah takes precedence over something in the Quran?
Question # q-18373075
Date Posted: 08/03/2004
In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,
The Qur’an always comes before the sunnah, as the sunnah is the commentary and the explanation of the Qur’an. Allah Most High says to His Messenger (Allah bless him & give him peace):
“So that you explain to the people what has been revealed to them.” (Surah al-Nahl, 44)
Also the famous Hadith of Mu’adh (Allah be pleased with him) when he said: “I will judge and make decisions according to the Qur’an and if I don't find a ruling in the Qur’an, I will turn to the sunnah”, is an example of this.
However, the Sunnah at times restricts the broad and general meaning of a particular word of the Qur’an. Similarly, it explains the ambiguous term by which the meaning intended by Allah Almighty is known. There are many examples for this.
Also according to the majority of the scholars (jumhur), a ruling of the Qur’an can be nullified by the Sunnah, as whatever the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) says is from Allah (Surah al-Najm,v4).
Example for this is the Hadith which says “Wasiyya (bequest) is not permissible for an heir (inheritor). This cancels out the verse of the Qur’an which indicates that Wasiyyat is prescribed for parents (al-Baqara, v.180).
And Allah Knows Best
Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam
Darul Iftaa
Leicester , UK
[/quote]
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
This is a totally a new concept to me. Never ever heard it.
Khanbabax, I cannot understand why you are supporting this kind of thing. Normally your posts are very knowledgable but this one is contradictory to the main doctrine of Islam.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
This is a totally a new concept to me. Never ever heard it.
Khanbabax, I cannot understand why you are supporting this kind of thing. Normally your posts are very knowledgable but this one is contradictory to the main doctrine of Islam.
Its not contradictoy , only thing is many laymen have never heard of it. Refer to my post above.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
Extreme reverance also leads to misguidance, simply put.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats
Here is the hadith:
(Dawood) Book 17, Number 2864:
Narrated AbuHurayrah:
I heard the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: Allah has appointed for everyone who has a right what is due to him, and no bequest must be made to an heir.
Here is the Quranic ayat:
2:180 IT IS ordained for you, when death approaches any of you and he is leaving behind much wealth, to make bequests in favour of his parents and [other] near of kin in accordance with what is fair: this is binding on all who are conscious of God.
Subhanallah! How blind can we get.
The hadith is talking about heirs and the Quranic verse is talking about parents and kin. Heirs are regarded as offspring and their share has been described in Quran and hadith. The hadith does not contradict the Quran or supercede because it is talking about a different category to whom wealth is to be distributed after death than what is mentioned in the Quranic ayat.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
I am just just and just waiting for more of such examples because to pass such a comment you cant base your decision only on one hadith or evidence, can we have more of it.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats
Thats exactly i was thinking that how does this hadees contradicts quran.
i 'll wait for more examples.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats
I am surprised you couldnt even grasp such a simple example. Quran is saying that there is wasiyat for the heirs while the hadees says there is no wasiyat for the parents. What can be more simple than this. So this hadees cancelled out the ayat of the Quran and whole Ummah has been following this, even people who are trying to reject this principle. Thats how the Sahabas and the jurists understood it, but if anyone is claiming that his/her understanding is better than theirs, what can I say.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
This has been the view of Ummah from the time of Prophet s.a.w and Sahabas and of the early scholars. I presented one example. Now lets see what Imam Abu Yusuf r.h (student of Imam Abu Hanifa r.h) had to say about this. His statement can be found in great commentary of the Quran by Abu Bakkar al-Jassas called Ahkaamul-Qur'an (vol. 2, p.425):
*The command of the Qur'an can be abrogated by the Sunnah (traditions of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) only if it has reached the level of Tawaatur or Istifadhah, such as the level of narration's of masah 'alal khuffain." *
Now one more example is of the masah on khuffain. And we can see what is the view of this great jurist. If we are not aware of something or have heard it the first time, its not right to jump to conclusions before fully investigation the matter.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
This has been the view of Ummah from the time of Prophet s.a.w and Sahabas and of the early scholars. I presented one example. Now lets see what Imam Abu Yusuf r.h (student of Imam Abu Hanifa r.h) had to say about this. His statement can be found in great commentary of the Quran by Abu Bakkar al-Jassas called Ahkaamul-Qur'an (vol. 2, p.425):
*The command of the Qur'an can be abrogated by the Sunnah (traditions of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) only if it has reached the level of Tawaatur or Istifadhah, such as the level of narration's of masah 'alal khuffain." *
Now one more example is of the masah on khuffain. And we can see what is the view of this great jurist. If we are not aware of something or have heard it the first time, its not right to jump to conclusions before fully investigation the matter.
Brother i completely agree with you but can I have statements of the Prophet mentioning this or the sahabas. Exactly the word that Quran can be abrogaged by Sunnah.
Please dont get great scholars, i respect them a lot may Allaah have mercy on them. I want exact statement, because such a big statement cannot be passed without any evidence and Prophetic saying of this statement.
Because if this is true the whole of ummah is become a worshipper of hadith rather then the quran, and hadith is always under scrutiny unlike quran.
Now i understand the authenticity of mutawatir hadith which is narrated by good chaing of narrators at tiems going upto 100, but can this be compared to Quran because its the word of Allaah. Lets think logically and take care.
Brother in faith.
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran's Ayats
^^
I have 2 very clear examples on which the Sahabas acted upon, and whole Ummah is acting upson, and even people who object to this principle have been acting upon. Now you say that all the Sahabas and the whole Ummah were on the wrong and after 1400 years we are here online finding their mistakes, what can I say. I follow the research of the great Jurists and experts and students of the Sahabas, and rest are free to follow their own e-research. :D
Wasalam. =)
Re: Mutawatir Ahadith superceding Holy Quran’s Ayats
Brother you are being offended cool down. I have been explicit in my words.
You agree that Sahabas acted upon the Prophet, i hope you agree.
Now did the Jurists follow sahabas or the Prophet ofcourse the Prophet.
Now who do we follow Sahabas, Jurists or the Prophet. Answer is Prophet again, there is no second thought to it.
Now with this premise, i am kindly requesting you to provide me with one explicit statement by the Prophet, i gave you a leeway and made your options easy. But now i am strictly asking you to adhere to Prophetic statement.
Leave alone jurists, sahabas and others now only provide me evidence from the Prophet.
Brother if this offends you then please do not reply, i am not here for arguing its purely based on knowledge. Because by bickering we are not getting to the main issue.
So i request again please provide me with an explicit statement by the Prophet, i.e. Prophet stating “Quran can be abrogated by Sunnah”.
No jurists, no sahabas, no scholars let it be Ashraf Ali thanvi, rashid gangohi, qassim nanotwi, yousuf, mohammed, abu hanifa, shafi, maliki, hanbali, ibn abdul wahab, maududi, abul hassan nadawi, ibn taymiya, ibn qayyim, ibn kathir, mohammed ilyas, his son yousuf, zakaria khandalwi no opinions from any one of them and you can add the list if you want to.
But now its Prophetic statement and command from the Quran for sunnah to abrogate the Quran.
Please treat me as a student who has no knowledge at all regarding Islam.
Salamvalekum,
Brother in faith.